Biomedical Science and the useless degree in reality

Original post by jockingclown

2017 update for biomedical science!!

The rights and wrongs of the employment of graduates over procurement of technology is a different matter really; but I wholeheartedly sympathise with graduates aiming for a career in Biomedical Science these days. This thread is proving to be very engaging and interesting.

The STP is open now until 13 February. BMS graduates can apply for the life science clinical scientist training posts.

Reply 366

Hiya everyone,

I am a biomedical science graduate (2008) and have always wanted to share my experience but forum threads I have come across have gone cold. This one is still alive, we can thank the trolls for that ☺

I will expand on my advice in the coming weeks as I am a little busy atm. My first nugget of wisdom is this:

Do not worry about IBMS accreditation, it doesn't mean much as if you want to work in a medical diagnostic laboratory it is the HCPC (state regulator) you need to please.

IBMS and HCPC courses do not overlap. The IBMS degrees join up with trainee bms positions, which are like hens teeth!

HCPC courses are integrated/co-terminus. This means, at the end you get state registration which Is what matters to work in this field. So do a course search on the hcpc website and choose those exact programs. They tend to be from former polytechnics rather than the older universities.

If you do not, it is possible to become a bms but much bureauratically difficult. Portfolio, top up, work experience etc.

More info to follow

Reply 367

jockingclown

OP

8

hi

are you currently a bms? which subspeciality are you working in?

yes this is useful to share as every experience is a learning curve and advice for people seeing this thread whether it be positive or negative..

Original post by captainmandrake

Hiya everyone,

I am a biomedical science graduate (2008) and have always wanted to share my experience but forum threads I have come across have gone cold. This one is still alive, we can thank the trolls for that ☺

I will expand on my advice in the coming weeks as I am a little busy atm. My first nugget of wisdom is this:

Do not worry about IBMS accreditation, it doesn't mean much as if you want to work in a medical diagnostic laboratory it is the HCPC (state regulator) you need to please.

IBMS and HCPC courses do not overlap. The IBMS degrees join up with trainee bms positions, which are like hens teeth!

HCPC courses are integrated/co-terminus. This means, at the end you get state registration which Is what matters to work in this field. So do a course search on the hcpc website and choose those exact programs. They tend to be from former polytechnics rather than the older universities.

If you do not, it is possible to become a bms but much bureauratically difficult. Portfolio, top up, work experience etc.

More info to follow

Reply 368

My job title (and salary!) is medical laboratory assistant, however there is no difference between me and my hcpc registered colleagues. I have been working here since 2011 and I like it: I am using my training, I'm not in a generic graduate job and there is some light at the end of the tunnel regarding state registration- finally.

I graduated from an IBMS accredited (but not HCPC) BSc. Biomedical sciences in 2008. This came as the global financial crisis hit. Jobs, public or private sector were hard to come by. I had a few interviews but no job offers and thought, like all of us, a MSc might help - delay growing up maybe. I asked my parents could they afford to help pay, they agreed. I had not done the gap yah thing, so I found a TEFL job and did that for 10 months until the masters started.

After finishing the masters, finding a proper job took about 7 months, within a administrative department. 6 months in, a vacancy came up in the department I work in now. For the interview for the admin job I said "working in a laboratory is boring, I want to work on the commercial side of things" - tell people what they want to hear😈. I still want to make commercial decisions.

From day 1 of my MLA job, I was running the bench. No sample reception for me😊. Print worklists, find samples, prepare reagents, perform analysis, read results, report onto lab information system, file Samples and go home. Note, I am reporting results. NHS labs in my experience have rigid roles as decided by pay band. Only band 5 or greater would be allowed to report. Authorisation is still the territory of the department head and deputies. NHS colleagues define themselves and each other by their pay band. Which can be very limiting to the point of farce. At least it limits the damage incapable people can make.

I don't have time to be bitter. Things are ok the way they are. The salary difference is made up for by state subsidy, in the form of child tax credit and housing benefit. Isn't the taxpayer getting such great value for money😒. Train someone (I paid £1,200/year, so state paid more than me) then make it nigh on impossible to get registered, pay a reduced rate and augment salary via tax credits.

Ah, and make it very easy for foreign trained scientists to register, bypassing the hoops.

Without wanting to sound like a daily mail reader, the overseas trained people are of variable quality. I have been in these positions:
"captainmandrake, microscope is not working" I roll my eyes and turn microscope on.
I saw the same colleague, MLA at the time, struggle to get the idea of soft stop when using a pipette. I drew a line in maker on the tip, she was using the line not the pipette. I told my boss, she went back to true MLA work.

Having said that there are some good overseas people who know their stuff, and helped me to learn things I didn't know already. Should the dodgy ones be let through at the expense of UK?

It comes down to burden of proof and money. At the moment the HCPC assessment of overseas people is a paper exercise which costs ~£600. Vulnerable to a great number of things, corruption included.

Here are some examples of the quality of the HCPCs vetting:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/9696447/NHS-radiographer-who-couldnt-speak-English-finally-dismissed-after-six-years.html
and
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10120171/Incompetent-cancer-specialist-hired-after-Skype-interview.html

In the second example he was suspended! How thoroughly was he checked? I think they were more concerned with his cheques!

So,

The UK courses recognised by hcpc should be inspected/audited. This costs money. Courses recognised by IBMS are also audited but by IBMS, again money.

Universities are only going to pay if it's in their interest. An IBMS logo looks nice on paper/website but is not much help as registration requires completion of the certificate of competence (also known as registration portfolio). Lab departments to train people need extra staff and money, neither of which are freely available at the moment - so given the supply of registered people from UK integrated courses and those from overseas, why bother?

I have 3 colleagues who worked in a large London teaching hospital for free on order to get state registration via the portfolio route. I however, cannot afford to work for free. These colleagues were essential for the running of this department. How is this possible?

The IBMS exists only to justify its existence. Membership Is not needed to be a bms and judging by the morass of different membership options they really want members. What do you get for your money? Magazine and help with cpd, which you could do yourself and not that useful for unregistered people. Also, if anyone is thinking of doing a masters, do not feel the need to do one approved by the IBMS, it's only useful for cpd within the IBMS. A masters will only come in useful if once registered you decide to go for promotion to band 6 onwards. Otherwise just do one that appeals to you.

Reply 369

Original post by captainmandrake

My job title (and salary!) is medical laboratory assistant, however there is no difference between me and my hcpc registered colleagues. I have been working here since 2011 and I like it: I am using my training, I'm not in a generic graduate job and there is some light at the end of the tunnel regarding state registration- finally.

I graduated from an IBMS accredited (but not HCPC) BSc. Biomedical sciences in 2008. This came as the global financial crisis hit. Jobs, public or private sector were hard to come by. I had a few interviews but no job offers and thought, like all of us, a MSc might help - delay growing up maybe. I asked my parents could they afford to help pay, they agreed. I had not done the gap yah thing, so I found a TEFL job and did that for 10 months until the masters started.

After finishing the masters, finding a proper job took about 7 months, within a administrative department. 6 months in, a vacancy came up in the department I work in now. For the interview for the admin job I said "working in a laboratory is boring, I want to work on the commercial side of things" - tell people what they want to hear😈. I still want to make commercial decisions.

From day 1 of my MLA job, I was running the bench. No sample reception for me😊. Print worklists, find samples, prepare reagents, perform analysis, read results, report onto lab information system, file Samples and go home. Note, I am reporting results. NHS labs in my experience have rigid roles as decided by pay band. Only band 5 or greater would be allowed to report. Authorisation is still the territory of the department head and deputies. NHS colleagues define themselves and each other by their pay band. Which can be very limiting to the point of farce. At least it limits the damage incapable people can make.

I don't have time to be bitter. Things are ok the way they are. The salary difference is made up for by state subsidy, in the form of child tax credit and housing benefit. Isn't the taxpayer getting such great value for money😒. Train someone (I paid £1,200/year, so state paid more than me) then make it nigh on impossible to get registered, pay a reduced rate and augment salary via tax credits.

Ah, and make it very easy for foreign trained scientists to register, bypassing the hoops.

Without wanting to sound like a daily mail reader, the overseas trained people are of variable quality. I have been in these positions:
"captainmandrake, microscope is not working" I roll my eyes and turn microscope on.
I saw the same colleague, MLA at the time, struggle to get the idea of soft stop when using a pipette. I drew a line in maker on the tip, she was using the line not the pipette. I told my boss, she went back to true MLA work.

Having said that there are some good overseas people who know their stuff, and helped me to learn things I didn't know already. Should the dodgy ones be let through at the expense of UK?

It comes down to burden of proof and money. At the moment the HCPC assessment of overseas people is a paper exercise which costs ~£600. Vulnerable to a great number of things, corruption included.

Here are some examples of the quality of the HCPCs vetting:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/9696447/NHS-radiographer-who-couldnt-speak-English-finally-dismissed-after-six-years.html
and
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10120171/Incompetent-cancer-specialist-hired-after-Skype-interview.html

In the second example he was suspended! How thoroughly was he checked? I think they were more concerned with his cheques!

So,

The UK courses recognised by hcpc should be inspected/audited. This costs money. Courses recognised by IBMS are also audited but by IBMS, again money.

Universities are only going to pay if it's in their interest. An IBMS logo looks nice on paper/website but is not much help as registration requires completion of the certificate of competence (also known as registration portfolio). Lab departments to train people need extra staff and money, neither of which are freely available at the moment - so given the supply of registered people from UK integrated courses and those from overseas, why bother?

I have 3 colleagues who worked in a large London teaching hospital for free on order to get state registration via the portfolio route. I however, cannot afford to work for free. These colleagues were essential for the running of this department. How is this possible?

The IBMS exists only to justify its existence. Membership Is not needed to be a bms and judging by the morass of different membership options they really want members. What do you get for your money? Magazine and help with cpd, which you could do yourself and not that useful for unregistered people. Also, if anyone is thinking of doing a masters, do not feel the need to do one approved by the IBMS, it's only useful for cpd within the IBMS. A masters will only come in useful if once registered you decide to go for promotion to band 6 onwards. Otherwise just do one that appeals to you.

Why did you never apply for the NHS scientist training programme? It's what lots of people with good BMS degrees do when they realise they can't get a trainee BMS position.

Reply 370

LauraBMS

I'm currently working as a BMS. I work within blood transfusion and haematology. Have been a BMS since 2010 and can give you a good idea of the benefits and drawbacks of the profession.

Benefits:
- If you manage to actually get HCPC registered as a biomedical scientist then finding work is very easy. The profession is in high demand and there are too many vacancies and not enough people to fill them. This is partly due to the way the government has capped pay rises in the NHS and locum rates, NHS spending cuts and also that it is incredibly difficult to get a trainee post. I have constant offers of work and have never had any difficulty in obtaining a position. I think in other disciplines it may be more difficult.

-Locum rates are fairly good at the moment, they used to be a lot better before the caps, but pay for a locum with a few years experience is around £23-25 per hour, in Wales and Scotland it is upwards of £30 per hour.

-Career progression is not that difficult due to many people leaving the profession and not many new starters

Downsides-

-Shift systems are horrendous, you are expected in my discipline to be available for work 24/7 7 days a week 365 days a year. 12-13 hour night and weekend lone working shifts with pretty no extra pay, random days off in the week (not two days off together), staffing issues meaning you will be working most weekends, be expected to swap and cover shifts at a moments notice, standby rotas meaning you could work 8am-4pm someone calls in sick at 5pm and you then have to do their 12 hour night shift, you get the picture. No work life balance what so ever

-Career progression can prove costly as to move up the ladder you need to have a MSc which most hospitals have stopped paying for and even giving you study time, meaning you either have to balance working full time and studying some how or drop your hours.

-Pay in the NHS is poor, for the training, responsibility, hours, knowledge and skills you have the pay is not reflective of this at all in my opinion.

-Short staffing levels and experienced BMS' retiring and leaving in droves means training is poor or non existent, pair that with over zealous incident reporting and a the high level of risk involved in the job means patient safety is poor and staff morale is at an all time low

-Work loads are far too high, you will be expected to carry out work which would have been done by three members of staff in double the amount of time a few years back, any delays equals incident reports, any mistakes equals incident reports ( where you will be dragged into a managers office to explain yourself and threatened with warnings)

- Equipment is old and faulty, analysers are bought on the cheap, they break down often and you will be expected to know how to repair them whilst working on your own in the middle of a major haemorrhage at 3am on your third consecutive 13 hour night shift.

-Recognition and respect for the profession are non existent, especially within the NHS. You will be shouted at by nurses, doctors, health care assistants, even porters and ward clerks, treated as if you're beneath them by pretty much everyone and your opinion and experience are not respected.

-Modernising scientific careers means that in a few years (if not already in some labs) you may be one of only a handful of qualified BMS' running a lab of lab assistants, you may be moved down a band and/or find yourself given more and more responsibilities typically reserved for seniors (catch is you won't be made a senior). Some labs are even making seniors band 6 or demanding masters degrees to move from band 5 to 6

I have many more issues with the profession, but the ones above are my major gripes. In short, if you are smart enough to be a BMS choose another career. I have only been a BMS since 2010 and things have got progressively worse, to the point where most labs are in crisis. If it wasn't for locum work I would have left a long time ago.

Reply 371

xxKiaraxx

I graduated last year with a Biomedical Science degree and the university I was at actively discouraged people from pursuing a career as a BMS. If that's not telling then I don't know what is.

Reply 372

LauraBMS it's reassuring to hear your negative points. Same story here pretty much but things are looking up in other areas. I like the sound of those locum rates, which I think is my long term career plan. I've already been reading about IR35💷

You confirm what I was thinking about candidate rather than job scarcity once registered. It's completely artificial but then I hope to benefit from it once registered so can't complain too much. It's like black cab drivers.

The IBMS exists in a time warp of ~1998 when they held the keys to the castle, they decided which candidate was suitable or not. Like a medieval livery company, by controlling numbers, wages should rise. Except that prior to agenda for change (2003) BMS salary was awful, the same was true for nurses and other associated healthcare practioners.* Hospitals had difficulty getting the staff, they would get people from overseas and call them technicians to get around the route to registration controlled by IBMS.

Sounds like how things are run now? Just titles and pay bands have been rearranged. Those who are determined to get registered get rewarded at the end. To earn £30k in academic science I would need phd plus a few post docs and publications. A London BMS can earn this easily.

Other contributers to this post are worried about machines/Robots/automation. I am not worried, it's happened already. Before there was a move for super specialisation. Now there will be an expectation for scientist grade to be generalists - assisted by automation rather than MLAs. The majority of what I do is office-type work, only I wear a white coat while doing it.

Reply 373

Ah clinical scientist trainee positions! I tried that for histocompatibility and immunogenetics. I was 1 of 1200 applicants. Tried 2009 and 2010, stopped trying after I heard what happens later.

Things might have improved but until very recently to get registered as a clinical scientist you needed to compete 4 year course (in addition to undergrad) - only the funding was only available for 3 years from NHSSTP . The host institutions were then expected to stump up the cash for year 4. They did but only for one lucky boy or girl. The rest were left with nowt! A former line manager of mine was in exactly this position and only by chance did she manage to get a 12 month maternity replacement contract to make up the difference.

Another colleague made a surreptitious parallel application to register as a bms just before the 3rd year expired. She came back to the lab the following Monday as a locum bms! Otherwise she'd be signing on, completely mad.

Also, from all the stp trainees who pass through my lab as a part of their course. They all have phds. It's kind of semi essential, or at least most of the competition have phds, not necessarily connected to lab medicine, it's an extra box to tick for filtration purposes.

Even if you do all of that, there is still no guarantee of a job (grade B) at the end of it.

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Reply 374

LauraBMS

Original post by captainmandrake

LauraBMS it's reassuring to hear your negative points. Same story here pretty much but things are looking up in other areas. I like the sound of those locum rates, which I think is my long term career plan. I've already been reading about IR35💷

You confirm what I was thinking about candidate rather than job scarcity once registered. It's completely artificial but then I hope to benefit from it once registered so can't complain too much. It's like black cab drivers.

The IBMS exists in a time warp of ~1998 when they held the keys to the castle, they decided which candidate was suitable or not. Like a medieval livery company, by controlling numbers, wages should rise. Except that prior to agenda for change (2003) BMS salary was awful, the same was true for nurses and other associated healthcare practioners.* Hospitals had difficulty getting the staff, they would get people from overseas and call them technicians to get around the route to registration controlled by IBMS.

Sounds like how things are run now? Just titles and pay bands have been rearranged. Those who are determined to get registered get rewarded at the end. To earn £30k in academic science I would need phd plus a few post docs and publications. A London BMS can earn this easily.

Other contributers to this post are worried about machines/Robots/automation. I am not worried, it's happened already. Before there was a move for super specialisation. Now there will be an expectation for scientist grade to be generalists - assisted by automation rather than MLAs. The majority of what I do is office-type work, only I wear a white coat while doing it.

Yes, one of the major upsides to the profession is that outside of the NHS a scientist with a BSc would earn nowhere near the same salary. I have seen jobs advertised looking for people with masters and Phd's asking for less than 25k, which is what you can expect to earn after just two years as a BMS. This will then rise yearly up to a maximum currently of just over 35k (in London it would be even higher). Of course to many people, this would seem a pretty poor salary for a scientist with 11+ years experience. But, as most people in science know, for someone with just a BSc that is a very good salary.

I was ready to quit the profession and becoming a locum stopped me. I have complete control over what shifts I work, for example, since becoming a locum I no longer work nights. I also rarely ever work weekends, if I do I work then it's at a premium, time + 1/3 on Saturdays and time + 2/3 on Sundays and bank holidays. I earn double what I earned as band 6 BMS on just basic hours.

The main hurdle anyone faces is getting registered in the first place, but once you are registered you will have no issue what so ever in finding a job, the locum market in England is extremely poor at the moment, labs are struggling to find locums who have actually worked in this country let alone trained here. Standards are appalling, most of the locums I work with have only ever trained and worked in other countries and their working practices and knowledge are no where near up to scratch, many have never even worked in this discipline. They are trained in out of date techniques and equipment, have no knowledge of our computer systems and even the NHS. I believe many also lie on their CVs and the agencies are so desperate to make money they don't bother checking. We had a lady who had just come over here from Greece and she barely spoke English, she didn't understand what the word haemorrhage was and she was working in a blood bank! We spend more time training locums than we do our trainees.

The hospitals are hell bent on this idea of having a few BMS' authorising results and the rest of the lab made up of various grades of lab assistant. In some disciplines such as chemistry this may work, however, in blood transfusion this is never going to happen. Every time an experienced BMS leaves they are replaced with more lab assistants. The lab assistants can only do so much, so thI is puts more and more pressure onto the remaining BMS', who then also leave. I believe this is the main problem at the trust I work at. Until the powers that be (who coincidentally don't actually work in the lab anymore, many have never worked in labs) accept that this staffing model does not work things will only get worse.

Reply 375

Original post by LauraBMS

Yes, one of the major upsides to the profession is that outside of the NHS a scientist with a BSc would earn nowhere near the same salary. I have seen jobs advertised looking for people with masters and Phd's asking for less than 25k, which is what you can expect to earn after just two years as a BMS. This will then rise yearly up to a maximum currently of just over 35k (in London it would be even higher). Of course to many people, this would seem a pretty poor salary for a scientist with 11+ years experience. But, as most people in science know, for someone with just a BSc that is a very good salary.

I was ready to quit the profession and becoming a locum stopped me. I have complete control over what shifts I work, for example, since becoming a locum I no longer work nights. I also rarely ever work weekends, if I do I work then it's at a premium, time + 1/3 on Saturdays and time + 2/3 on Sundays and bank holidays. I earn double what I earned as band 6 BMS on just basic hours.

The main hurdle anyone faces is getting registered in the first place, but once you are registered you will have no issue what so ever in finding a job, the locum market in England is extremely poor at the moment, labs are struggling to find locums who have actually worked in this country let alone trained here. Standards are appalling, most of the locums I work with have only ever trained and worked in other countries and their working practices and knowledge are no where near up to scratch, many have never even worked in this discipline. They are trained in out of date techniques and equipment, have no knowledge of our computer systems and even the NHS. I believe many also lie on their CVs and the agencies are so desperate to make money they don't bother checking. We had a lady who had just come over here from Greece and she barely spoke English, she didn't understand what the word haemorrhage was and she was working in a blood bank! We spend more time training locums than we do our trainees.

The hospitals are hell bent on this idea of having a few BMS' authorising results and the rest of the lab made up of various grades of lab assistant. In some disciplines such as chemistry this may work, however, in blood transfusion this is never going to happen. Every time an experienced BMS leaves they are replaced with more lab assistants. The lab assistants can only do so much, so thI is puts more and more pressure onto the remaining BMS', who then also leave. I believe this is the main problem at the trust I work at. Until the powers that be (who coincidentally don't actually work in the lab anymore, many have never worked in labs) accept that this staffing model does not work things will only get worse.

Unfortunately you've made the point there. BMSs do get paid quite well for what they do. The NHS would rather pay lab staff less and let BMS just authorise. Much of what they do isn't graduate work - I was one of them in biochem. You don't need much training to know whether QCs are in or out. Now I'm a trainee clinical scientist because I felt there wasn't much career trajectory and I have a PhD (it has no benefit in biomedical science) and I want to stay in science and not progress to pure management.

Reply 376

Original post by Bagsworth

Unfortunately you've made the point there. BMSs do get paid quite well for what they do. The NHS would rather pay lab staff less and let BMS just authorise. Much of what they do isn't graduate work - I was one of them in biochem. You don't need much training to know whether QCs are in or out. Now I'm a trainee clinical scientist because I felt there wasn't much career trajectory and I have a PhD (it has no benefit in biomedical science) and I want to stay in science and not progress to pure management.

Bagsworth, how are things regarding completing the required years for qualifying as a clinical scientist? Do they still claim you have to reapply for your job at the end of year 3? Is it funded by central funds or the host institution?

Also, what clinical scientist jobs exist for bioscience. The bulk of results from a search on NHS jobs yields 117 hits but how many are medical physics? Then does completing the immunology stp program, for example, prevent you from applying to another job in biochemistry.

Finally, jobs may exist but across the country. Fine if free and single but not ideal with a family in tow.

Reply 377

Original post by captainmandrake

Bagsworth, how are things regarding completing the required years for qualifying as a clinical scientist? Do they still claim you have to reapply for your job at the end of year 3? Is it funded by central funds or the host institution?

Also, what clinical scientist jobs exist for bioscience. The bulk of results from a search on NHS jobs yields 117 hits but how many are medical physics? Then does completing the immunology stp program, for example, prevent you from applying to another job in biochemistry.

Finally, jobs may exist but across the country. Fine if free and single but not ideal with a family in tow.

There's no guaranteed job at the end of the 3 years although a lot of people do end up getting a place at their training hospital. Training is only 3 years now and if you pass the exit exams to can register as a clinical scientist. There should be enough jobs across the country for everyone in your year. Medical physics takes on by far the greatest number of trainees and so should have quite a few jobs around the country. The STP is centrally funded. Your hospital pays you but gets the money from the national school for healthcare science (NSHCS) - look up their website sometime.

If you become a clinical biochemist then you can only apply for clinical scientist jobs in biochemistry. It's very specialised clinical and laboratory training. You will be advising doctors on the interpretation of the results and conducting research into better assays and you won't possess the specialist knowledge in immunology to advise doctors on IgG subclasses or whether the hypercalcaemia result is to do with a parathyroid adenoma, myeloma or maybe antacids.
There are first year rotations around close specialties (for biochem you spend 12 weeks in immunology, haematology and genetics) but it's for appreciation more than anything to do with career.
But in a way the training is grooming up to be able to be a cross discipline consultant one day. At the minute you can only apply for the discipline you have specialised in with your MSc and three years of long competences.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 378

Original post by LauraBMS

We had a lady who had just come over here from Greece and she barely spoke English, she didn't understand what the word haemorrhage was and she was working in a blood bank! We spend more time training locums than we do our trainees.

Wow, I don't know whether to laugh or cry! She said she is from Greece. I am sure haemorrhage is Greek, rather than Latin origin - she should have known better.

Reply 379

LauraBMS