The Student Room Group

What do you think about Scotland having independence?

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Reply 20
They should be independent so that they cannot vote in any English disputes - such as the tution fee fiasco.
Original post by buildalegohouse
What makes you so sure?


There just isn't really much public support for it.
I think it's a rubbish idea and will just create problems and Scotland will suffer massively, although I think most people are against it.
That being said, Alex Salmond is the cleverest and most manipulative politician there is, so he might just win it...
But what will happen to all the Scots living in England like my parents? And does it automatically mean that the remaining countries in the UK are allowed to go to scottish unis with no tuition fees?
Reply 23
If th Scots want independence then all power to them but the majority of them don't and most of the ones that do haven't thought it out properly at all.
Reply 24
Original post by Nick100
You can't see how voting away someone else's liberties isn't self determination? Independence is only worthwhile if it will increase our liberty; there is nothing to indicate that it will do so.


Only you weren't talking about voting away someone elses liberties, you were talking about the Scottish people voting away their own. If the Scots chose to do so then that would be their business, since they're the ones who would be affected.

As another example, Northern Ireland has far more autonomy as part of the United Kingdom than it would if it ever rejoined the South. It even has its own assembly. Yet that doesn't stop the nationalists from having significant influence in Northern Irish politics, and if ever they become a majority and leave the union then no-one could possibly say that that wouldn't be self-determination.
Reply 25
Original post by Algorithm69
Actually, the right of self-determination does include the right to choose whether your nation is fully independent.


No, you've quite simply invented that.

Self-determination is a right in international law. When addressed on the point of giving a right to secede on nationalist grounds, this has always been denied. In fact, the Canadian government put this question to its Supreme Court in relation to Quebec (Reference in re: Secession of Quebec) which held (consistently with other international opinions)--

'a right to secession only arises under the principle of self-determination of peoples at international law where "a people" is governed as part of a colonial empire; where "a people" is subject to alien subjugation, domination or exploitation; and possibly where "a people" is denied any meaningful exercise of its right to self-determination within the state of which it forms a part. In other circumstances, peoples are expected to achieve self-determination within the framework of their existing state. A state whose government represents the whole of the people or peoples resident within its territory, on a basis of equality and without discrimination, and respects the principles of self-determination in its internal arrangements, is entitled to maintain its territorial integrity under international law and to have that territorial integrity recognized by other states'

International law does also not recognise nationalism. Nationalism is a political ideology: to suggest it somehow confers rights is absurd.
Reply 26
Original post by CJM13
I have no problem with Scotland being independent, as long as they don't go down the route of trying to claim every institution with "scot" or "scottish" in the name.


Not only will the SNP do that, but they'll want to tear the British armed forces, the British diplomatic service, HM Treasury and all those other shared institutions apart - or expect a massive lump of cash to 'compensate' them.
Reply 27
Original post by Butterfly9595
And does it automatically mean that the remaining countries in the UK are allowed to go to scottish unis with no tuition fees?


If Scotland then acceded to the EU, yes. It would, however, mean that the policy of free tuition would be even less affordable than it is today. I expect the 'no fees' position to collapse eventually anyway, this would just speed it up.

Original post by No Man
They should be offered independence similar to the independence territories like Bermuda and the Isle of Mann have imo, rather than total independance.


That only works - or rather half-works - because they are small territories. I think it would be politically extremely dodgy for Scotland to have Westminster making decisions on it in defence, foreign affairs and the constitution without Scotland having any MPs there.
Reply 28
Original post by Arbolus
Only you weren't talking about voting away someone elses liberties, you were talking about the Scottish people voting away their own. If the Scots chose to do so then that would be their business, since they're the ones who would be affected.


We aren't a hivemind; if 51% of the Scottish population votes to reduce our liberties then they have voted away the liberty of the other 49% - they have voted away someone else's liberty. "Self-determination" is utterly worthless if it doesn't increase our freedom.
If Scotland separates from the UK it will be a messy affair.

I don't see how this is good for Scotland economically, but if the Scottish people want it then by all means it is their right to have it.

Hey, if they separate then surely the UK can no longer have the blue and white in their country's flag? WELSH DRAGON IN THE NEW FLAG PLEASE. :biggrin:
Reply 30
Original post by Nick100
We aren't a hivemind; if 51% of the Scottish population votes to reduce our liberties then they have voted away the liberty of the other 49% - they have voted away someone else's liberty. "Self-determination" is utterly worthless if it doesn't increase our freedom.


But that's the whole point of democracy - the views of the majority are the ones which have most weight. An unanimous vote from the entire electorate is all but impossible. There's a significant proportion of people in favour of legalising cannabis, and yet if that were put to a referendum now it would almost certainly fail. Should we give the people who voted "yes", including everyone already using it, the right to smoke weed, while it remains banned for everyone who would never have used it anyway?
Reply 31
I'd like the Union to remain, but it'd be good to see Scotland have more powers.

For example, allow them to set their own taxes and organize their own trade. This should be done within restrictions, so for example with the current embargo that's on Iran, Scotland would not be allowed to trade with them. Just things like that.
Reply 32
Original post by No Man
They should be offered independence similar to the independence territories like Bermuda and the Isle of Mann have imo, rather than total independance.


I suppose that's essentially what devo-max is, except that there would still be Scottish MPs in the British government. I don't think it would go down to well if you removed that representation when the UK still has some power over Scotland.


Original post by Butterfly9595
I think it's a rubbish idea and will just create problems and Scotland will suffer massively, although I think most people are against it.
That being said, Alex Salmond is the cleverest and most manipulative politician there is, so he might just win it...
But what will happen to all the Scots living in England like my parents? And does it automatically mean that the remaining countries in the UK are allowed to go to scottish unis with no tuition fees?

I don't think anything in particular would happen to your parents. There must be loads of people who live in one country and work in another across the EU. If Scotland becomes independent I think we can be pretty sure they're not going to put up border controls. There will be free travel between Scotland and England, just like there is between Ireland and Northern Ireland. Although one thing I've always wondered when you work and live in different countries, which one do you pay taxes to?

If Scotland continues to offer free tuition for Scottish students, and they remain in the EU, then yes English students will also get free tuition. But it's quite likely they'd have to drop free tuition.
Original post by Psyk
Although one thing I've always wondered when you work and live in different countries, which one do you pay taxes to?


And (assuming Scotland becomes independent) you work for a British company, in a Scottish branch, would you have to pay two lots of taxes - one to the British tax office, one to the Scottish tax office? That happens with some employees of foreign companies working in the UK at the moment, they pay taxes in the country of the company they're employed by, and then again in their own country...
Reply 34
I don't care. I am English, and I think England would be better off without Scotland.
Reply 35
I would also think that the remainder of the UK and Scotland would have to sign some kind of treaty, to sort out the separation.

There are millions who live in England but were born in Scotland, and vice versa. So these people would be Scottish citizens by default.
Original post by sao desi
I would also think that the remainder of the UK and Scotland would have to sign some kind of treaty, to sort out the separation.

There are millions who live in England but were born in Scotland, and vice versa. So these people would be Scottish citizens by default.


Don't think they'd be citizens by default. You can't just force citizenship on someone if they were born in Scotland but were living in England. I'm sure there would be some choice involved.
Let them have it, then we can rebuild Hadrians wall and stop them coming here again. :colone:
Reply 38
I can't see it doing much good to be honest, but if the scots decide they want independence they should have it.
Reply 39
Original post by ronald_mcdonald
Don't think they'd be citizens by default. You can't just force citizenship on someone if they were born in Scotland but were living in England. I'm sure there would be some choice involved.


Per international law, one has right to citizenship of the country of their birth.

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