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No. Torture is poor at generating accurate information, as it primarily incentivises telling the interrogator what they want to hear rather than anything useful (particularly if you actually have nothing useful to tell). It is also the most debasing and degrading thing that you can do to a human being, it warps horribly both victim and perpetrator, and is generally just deeply, deeply, deeply unpleasant.

Lots of policies might protect against the threat of terrorism. But that doesn't mean you should carry them out.
Reply 2
littleshambles
No. Torture is poor at generating accurate information, as it primarily incentivises telling the interrogator what they want to hear rather than anything useful (particularly if you actually have nothing useful to tell). It is also the most debasing and degrading thing that you can do to a human being, it warps horribly both victim and perpetrator, and is generally just deeply, deeply, deeply unpleasant.

Lots of policies might protect against the threat of terrorism. But that doesn't mean you should carry them out.


you, madam, haven't heard of jack bauer.
Reply 3
Better blood on the streets of London than our Government commit torture. Liberty is not to be substituted for expediency.
Reply 4
For national security, no, it's totally and explicitly wrong.
madima
you, madam, haven't heard of jack bauer.


Lol.

Seriously though basing government policy on TV drama is the way forward. Next a Bill to have all forensic investigations conducted by David Caruso. Preferably from a yacht off the coast of Miami.
Reply 6
pleaserecycle
Torture - necessary for national security or a gross violation of human rights?
Why can't it be both?
Reply 7
A country that sacrifices liberty in order to protect itself deserves and gets neither protection nor liberty.
Reply 8
littleshambles
No. Torture is poor at generating accurate information, as it primarily incentivises telling the interrogator what they want to hear rather than anything useful (particularly if you actually have nothing useful to tell).
That's why most people now use modern techniques, drugs and intelligence focused interrogation.
Reply 9
The only way I could possibly support torture would be if it had to go through a court process, including a jury, whereby the judge in question , after the jury gives approval for the torture, gives a time frame for the length of the torture, specifies what instruments of torture may be used, and insists that a post-torture report be compiled and released to the public, subject of an independent inquiry. Any breach of the orders given by the judge in this matter result in an acquittal of the detainee and financial compensation.

Arbitrary executive action: no.
Renal
That's why most people now use modern techniques, drugs and intelligence focused interrogation.


Modern techniques? I've read about the generally preferred "enhanced interrogation techniques" used today e.g. in Guantanamo, and brushing aside more "traditional" torture methods used in renditions, I don't see what is qualitatively different about modern methods such that they are more likely to generate accurate information. I suppose the focus on psychological degeneration rather than simple pain aversion might do that, but then it might not... I can't say it's my area of expertise particularly it's just what I read. But it was a good source. (Honest.)
littleshambles
No. Torture is poor at generating accurate information, as it primarily incentivises telling the interrogator what they want to hear rather than anything useful (particularly if you actually have nothing useful to tell)..


Source?
Reply 12
Gross violation, always.
Reply 13
littleshambles
Modern techniques? I've read about the generally preferred "enhanced interrogation techniques" used today e.g. in Guantanamo, and brushing aside more "traditional" torture methods used in renditions, I don't see what is qualitatively different about modern methods such that they are more likely to generate accurate information. I suppose the focus on psychological degeneration rather than simple pain aversion might do that, but then it might not... I can't say it's my area of expertise particularly it's just what I read. But it was a good source. (Honest.)
I'm interested, what is it?

I found this to be a good read; http://www.amazon.co.uk/Interrogators-War-Breaking-Al-Qaeda-Afghanistan/dp/0719566207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250969090&sr=8-1

FM34-52 and 2-22-3 are also interesting if you've got the patience to sift through the US Army bureacratese http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/army/fm/fm34-52/ http://www.army.mil/institution/armypublicaffairs/pdf/fm2-22-3.pdf

The british JSIW haven't published anything useful but the stories I've heard from people who've worked with them were pretty enlightening.
I will read anything with the "FM" tag on it. Also, I thought I was the only one on TSR who used globalsecurity :lolwut:
Torture is a gross violation of human rights, without a doubt.
It certainly doesn't have to reward good information, people will "admit" to anything if they think it'll stop further pain.
Reply 16
There was a reason why people like Cessare Beccaria and others did not condone the practice of torture: because the practice was observed over the centuries to be ineffective and produced less than satisfactory results , thereby making it completely unnecessary to adopt.

If the so-called civilized world is still exercising torture practices today, whether for national security purposes or not, I don't see how they have become any more civilized than the people from the dark or the middle ages.
Torture is a gross violation of human rights...it cannot be justified
Reply 18
It's a gross violation of human rights, but I'm not going to go so far as to say it can never be justified. I can construct artificial scenarios where I would think that some torture is justified, and so I'm not going to say it "cannot ever be justified"
Reply 19
In some circumstances (i.e the ticking bomb scenario) I believe it is neccessary - if 1000 peoples lives can be saved then I think there can be no debate.

Personally I have to disagree and say that torture can generate usefull information - when it is done by experts and with proper equipment - i.e. the ability to tell whether or not they are deliberately hiding something, or if they genuinely dont know anything. (e.g. a lie detector). Although obviously this doesn't justify torture for anything other than the protection of national security.

Having said that I am probabely biased on the subject, being a big fan of Mr Jack Bauer :smile:

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