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UGeNe
I've been all over Quebec, and it's a very different experience from the rest of Canada.


I've been all over Newcastle and it's a very different experience from London.

As I just mentioned the majority of Quebecians support, at least provisionally, the status quo. When the majority support secession, as is the case in SO and Abkhazia, then it will have more of a case.


'Crimea is a parliamentary republic which is governed by the Constitution of Crimea.'

SO and Abkhazia have no form of self governance, in fact this was taken away from them in savage circumstances at the loss of 1000 lives. I asked for an area with a 'greater' claim to soveriegnty, if you can't provide one then stop wasting my time.
Reply 41
UGeNe
You must have really detested the collapse of the Soviet Union. Separatist rebels toying with the Socialist program.


Well, at one stage everyone was more or less rebelling. But ultimately the Soviet Union did vote itself out of existence. Still, the collapse of a federation is one thing, secessionist rebellion is quite another.

Communist Daughter
Or is it opression and a complete disregard for the individual needs of an area that brings about secessionist tendencies?


Often there are real or invented injustices in such areas. Breaking away and forming a new country is a disproportionate response in virtually all circumstances. Still, what unites nationalists - even if it has no basis in fact - is a good sob story.

Utter tosh. Have you heard of the American war of independance? They fought for much less.


The colonies in the Americas were never part of a larger country. They were possessions of, not parts of, the United Kingdom. Whilst I don't believe the American Revolution was justified, I at least accept the basis of their relationship being an inherently voluntary one. The same was not true, for example, when the South tried to secede in the Civil War.

The two relationships throw up completely different issues. Decolonialisation and secession, for example, were not the same thing as some here have tried to suggest.

You're claim that if these regions were given independence the world would descend into anarchy with every region with it's own cultural identity seeking independence is also ludicrous.


That is why the doctrine of territorial integrity was created, and that is why it stands. The international order is one of effective anarchy on an inter-state level, governed by voluntary agreement and a very small corpus of peremptory norms which are rarely enforced or enforceable in practice, and indeed generally disputed.

Whilst this works tolerably well at present, the system is built on stability and continuity.

If you can name me another region (aside from perhaps gaza) with a greater claim to sovereignty feel free.


I don't know of any region at present that I would consider to have any 'claim' to sovereignty.
Reply 42
Craig_D
Well, that is a little different. For a start you gained ownership of the island illegally, therefore the legitimacy of your ownership would be in doubt :dontknow: Either way, call in Interpol perhaps.


Interpol aren't an operational agency and require consent and approval of member-states to have any dealings with them - in a new country, they could do squat.

OK, you've raised an issue about landownership - I suppose we can remove that from the imaginary scenario and assume I had undisputed title.

Maybe not, but it still happens. India, Canada, Australia and the United States leaving the British empire for example. Agreed, it could be argued that the empire was sucking them dry, but I think you can agree that all of those countries have far more prosperity than if they had never been under British command.


Save the United States, where we fought a war over the issue, all left with the consent of the British Parliament; their independence was a gift given, not an assertion made. But as I have said above, these were external possessions, never integral parts of the UK. They were never able to involve themselves in the constitutional process which decided their apparently sovereign government in London.

Well, why not make the world one united country? That answer suggests that would be a good thing.


It would be practically impossible, but I certainly support movement in that broad direction. Which is why I support organisations like the European Union and the United Nations.

Define "unwilling people" people, when I speak of independence I mean solely where that proposal is agreed to by the majority. In which case it would would be those that support remaining united that are the unwilling ones.


The relevant 'people' to whom we must pay heed in a sovereign state, on matters of its constitution, are the 'people' of that state, whole and indivisible. To try and invent new representative groups - essentially a new demos - is fundamentally anti-democratic. Indeed, democracy can never function where the people are held to ransom by other groups with special legal privileges: democracy is built on the broad legal equality of all citizens.

And speaking of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, it just shows you what a happens when a dictator like Mugabe gets too much strength over the people and is no longer answerable to them, anarchy.


Mugabe doesn't do badly out of elections, unfortunately.
Reply 43
L i b
Interpol aren't an operational agency and require consent and approval of member-states to have any dealings with them - in a new country, they could do squat.

OK, you've raised an issue about landownership - I suppose we can remove that from the imaginary scenario and assume I had undisputed title.



Save the United States, where we fought a war over the issue, all left with the consent of the British Parliament; their independence was a gift given, not an assertion made. But as I have said above, these were external possessions, never integral parts of the UK. They were never able to involve themselves in the constitutional process which decided their apparently sovereign government in London.



It would be practically impossible, but I certainly support movement in that broad direction. Which is why I support organisations like the European Union and the United Nations.



The relevant 'people' to whom we must pay heed in a sovereign state, on matters of its constitution, are the 'people' of that state, whole and indivisible. To try and invent new representative groups - essentially a new demos - is fundamentally anti-democratic. Indeed, democracy can never function where the people are held to ransom by other groups with special legal privileges: democracy is built on the broad legal equality of all citizens.



Mugabe doesn't do badly out of elections, unfortunately.


dumbassery
Reply 44
Student2806
And...? I'm surprised it's taken Chavezuela this long to recognise them, so crazy, pro-Russia and anti-America is its dicta...president.


He may be crazy, but he is extremely popular and he has won all of the elections fairly. He is not a dictator by any means.
Reply 45
pasargad
He may be crazy, but he is extremely popular and he has won all of the elections fairly. He is not a dictator by any means.


So did Putin. But the West is :eek3:
Reply 46
L i b
Interpol aren't an operational agency and require consent and approval of member-states to have any dealings with them - in a new country, they could do squat.

OK, you've raised an issue about landownership - I suppose we can remove that from the imaginary scenario and assume I had undisputed title.



Save the United States, where we fought a war over the issue, all left with the consent of the British Parliament; their independence was a gift given, not an assertion made. But as I have said above, these were external possessions, never integral parts of the UK. They were never able to involve themselves in the constitutional process which decided their apparently sovereign government in London.



It would be practically impossible, but I certainly support movement in that broad direction. Which is why I support organisations like the European Union and the United Nations.



The relevant 'people' to whom we must pay heed in a sovereign state, on matters of its constitution, are the 'people' of that state, whole and indivisible. To try and invent new representative groups - essentially a new demos - is fundamentally anti-democratic. Indeed, democracy can never function where the people are held to ransom by other groups with special legal privileges: democracy is built on the broad legal equality of all citizens.



Mugabe doesn't do badly out of elections, unfortunately.



Scratch most of that. Without being a hypocrite I think I may actually agree with you. While I still believe in democracy which was my basic point I do also believe that unifying people and creating bonds has more advantages than splitting them up (economies of scale, as it were), it's just a pity that forcing them may be necessary.
Reply 47
Craig_D
Scratch most of that. Without being a hypocrite I think I may actually agree with you. While I still believe in democracy which was my basic point I do also believe that unifying people and creating bonds has more advantages than splitting them up (economies of scale, as it were), it's just a pity that forcing them may be necessary.


I guess United Kingdom is better than Scotland, United Ireland, Wales and England. **** the little people who can't see the big picture.
Reply 48
UGeNe
I guess United Kingdom is better than Scotland, United Ireland, Wales and England. **** the little people who can't see the big picture.



Well ... it is? :dontknow: What's wrong with it?

Dividing people causes conflict, Social Identity Theory and all that. What's better than uniting people? Rather than dividing and segregating them all, how is that possibly progress?

I never thought I'd say this but national identity is just nonsense, it really has no use and creates nothing by small-mindedness and xenophobia. What is really wrong with throwing differences out the window and uniting everyone?
Reply 49
Craig_D
Well ... it is? :dontknow: What's wrong with it?

Dividing people causes conflict, Social Identity Theory and all that. What's better than uniting people? Rather than dividing and segregating them all, how is that possibly progress?

I never thought I'd say this but national identity is just nonsense, it really has no use and creates nothing by small-mindedness and xenophobia. What is really wrong with throwing differences out the window and uniting everyone?


You Sir have lost your mind. I debated chavs who made more sense.
Reply 50
UGeNe
You Sir have lost your mind. I debated chavs who made more sense.


Well, all you've really done so far is call me mad, you haven't really said why?

The very existence of groups creates rivalry and hostility between them. Is there a benefit to separating people and pointing out their differences?

Why not focus on what you have in common? Is unification not better than separation? ...
Reply 51
It is something that the Yanks should wait after their arbitrary and illegal reckognition of Kosovo region. Personally I support the territorial integrity of all countries, including Serbia and Georgia but yanks should foresee the consequences of their actions in Balkans. Especially now with Russia becoming a leading superpower.
Reply 52
UGeNe


China is against Taiwan's separation, so We-the-West must support it.
The US and all of Europe don't recognise the RoC or maintain official diplomatic relations with it, so that's quite wrong.


Oh, someone already said - sorry.
Reply 53
prasulee
The US and all of Europe don't recognise the RoC or maintain official diplomatic relations with it, so that's quite wrong.


Oh, someone already said - sorry.


So why has the US hinted at military support if China invades?
Reply 54
prasulee
The US and all of Europe don't recognise the RoC or maintain official diplomatic relations with it, so that's quite wrong.


Well, the RoC isn't an independent country, it's essentially the government-in-exile of all of China. As for recognition, most states do in effect recognise it and have relations with it - it is only because China refuses to have relations with any country that has relations with Taiwan that more states don't.

Placating the Communist Chinese is rather more important in practice than principles are.

UGeNe
You Sir have lost your mind. I debated chavs who made more sense.


I was under the impression that you were a chav...
Reply 55
L i b
Well, the RoC isn't an independent country, it's essentially the government-in-exile of all of China. As for recognition, most states do in effect recognise it and have relations with it - it is only because China refuses to have relations with any country that has relations with Taiwan that more states don't.

I thought these days the RoC were happy to accept they are the government of only Taiwan?
Reply 56
Psyk
I thought these days the RoC were happy to accept they are the government of only Taiwan?


Not to my knowledge, but then again you may well have greater insight into the issue than I do. I can't say it's something I've studied in depth.
L i b
Well, the RoC isn't an independent country, it's essentially the government-in-exile of all of China. As for recognition, most states do in effect recognise it and have relations with it - it is only because China refuses to have relations with any country that has relations with Taiwan that more states don't.

Placating the Communist Chinese is rather more important in practice than principles are.



I was under the impression that you were a chav...


China is more capitalist than communist.
miv
It is something that the Yanks should wait after their arbitrary and illegal reckognition of Kosovo region. Personally I support the territorial integrity of all countries, including Serbia and Georgia but yanks should foresee the consequences of their actions in Balkans. Especially now with Russia becoming a leading superpower.


Russia becoming a leading superpower? With it's population crisis and economy I think not. Unless you're hinting the possibility that Russia could become a superpower in 100-200 years time, then perhaps, once it has nuked the rest of the world and is the last one standing it may claim superpower status, until then, it won't become one anytime soon.
EnthusiasticEnthusiast
Russia becoming a leading superpower? With it's population crisis and economy I think not. Unless you're hinting the possibility that Russia could become a superpower in 100-200 years time, then perhaps, once it has nuked the rest of the world and is the last one standing it may claim superpower status, until then, it won't become one anytime soon.


:ditto: Russia won't become a superpower anytime soon. And if sustainable/renewable energy is developed - reducing the world's demand for natural gas, coal and oil - the Russian economy is screwed. It has very little to fall back on if the energy market goes tits up.

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