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I hate Vegetarians.

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splunket
The FSA recommends a 55g of protein a day for the average adult over 19. You would be hard pushed to find a higher figure for this, especially in reference to recommended protein intake in women. Have you ever even heard of a vegetarian with a protein deficiency?


actually protein recommended intake is varied as it should be based on your height and weight. As people are of different heights and weights i showed a decent range. 55g is merely assuming that a person would be of average weight and height, which alot of people arent. Much like the body mass index rule.

To be honest i dont know alot of vegetarians that arent veggies for cultural or religious reasons and besides...signs of slight protein deficiency arent really that recognizeable unless you have time to inspect someones minor details of their body.

I never said vegetarians are deficient in protein but rather have to work harder to gain as much as someone with a regualr diet. Especially vegans.

but now that you've brought out the subject.... if these websites are allowed to be posted then take a look for yourself - http://proteins-carb-fats.suite101.com/article.cfm/protein_deficiency_in_vegetarian_eating

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-protein-deficiency.htm

not quite sure on the reliability of the sites though.
It depends on your age. It ranges from 2.2grams per kilogram of a cild aged 0-6 months...to 0.8 grams per kilo for someone aged 19+
I completely agree that if you can have a crap diet either way. Like i said i wasnt sure on the reliability on those websites. I just thought that i would do some online research since the protein deficiency subject was brought. :smile:
To be honest, this has to be the biggest sidetrack i have ever seen. At this rate i could reply with masses of paragraphs, only to get replied to with another masses of paragraphs both exploring the same subject of "morality". The subject of vegetarianism is long gone from this discussion and i feel as if its sidetracked very far and evolved into a sociological, psychological and possibly even philosophical debate. If i were to continue i would try to back up my points and try to combat yours only to get get the same treatment in return with the "moral agents and patients". Besides i dont have much intrest in any of the "ology" subjects. So i dont see the point in me replying to these debates on morals and ethics anymore...*sigh*
Reply 84
IStruggleWithChemistry


I never said vegetarians are deficient in protein but rather have to work harder to gain as much as someone with a regualr diet. Especially vegans.




IStruggleWithChemistry
Protein is essential in a diet...especially for growth and tissue repair..and by being a vegetarian your probably not gonna get enough. So there i just proved health wise, why consuming meat is right.


You simply claimed that a vegetarian probably doesn't get enough protein, the implication of which is a protein deficient person. Please don't backtrack and claim you were saying something else the first time around.

I am fully aware that the right amount of protein for an individual depends on many different variables, including height and weight. Of course, if you look at my post giving FSA recommended daily protein intake of 55g you will see that I never claimed it was anything but an average.

As you even explained yourself, this is based on the calculation of 0.8g of protein for every kg of body weight. We are talking generally here, no doubt, I would not particularly recommend double the protein intake for a morbidly obese person just because they are the same height and sex but twice the weight of a slim person.

If, as you say you were also talking generally, your recommended 60 - 80 grams of protein daily would average out as 70 grams. This is a large difference with the average of 55 grams which I gave. You might also find it of note that one of the websites you linked to gives an average of 56 grams of protein p/day for an adult male and 46 grams for the average female.

My guess is that your personal ideas about how much protein it is healthy to consume are slightly outdated, national recommended figures have been coming steadily down now for many years, and I don't doubt that they will drop further before levelling out.

If you honestly believe that it is 'hard' to get enough protein on a diet that doesn't include meat then I would point out that it depends on your deinition of 'hard' when including something in your diet. To you, perhaps it would be hard to eat how others do without feeling like some sort of chore. Personally, I consume a variety of nuts, seeds, wholegrains, pulses and legumes, vegetables, fruit, leaves and many different soy products on a daily basis. I do this not in a concerted effort to obtain enough of anything in particular in my diet, but because I enjoy the flavours and textures they create in my food and it is a pleasure to eat them. Anyone who doesn't eat meat and does find it hard to obtain enough protein is either not eating enough calories in their diet or is obtaining their calories from food devoid of good levels of nutrition, most likely from highly processed or overly starchy foods. This would result in low levels of many essential nutrients and vitamins in addition to protein, whether you be omnivore, vegan or cannibal. My favourite foods are freshly prepared from fresh ingredients, it would be an effort for me to sit around eating cereal, biscuits, crisps and sandwiches all day, so I guess its a matter of preference.
splunket
You simply claimed that a vegetarian probably doesn't get enough protein, the implication of which is a protein deficient person. Please don't backtrack and claim you were saying something else the first time around.

I am fully aware that the right amount of protein for an individual depends on many different variables, including height and weight. Of course, if you look at my post giving FSA recommended daily protein intake of 55g you will see that I never claimed it was anything but an average.

As you even explained yourself, this is based on the calculation of 0.8g of protein for every kg of body weight. We are talking generally here, no doubt, I would not particularly recommend double the protein intake for a morbidly obese person just because they are the same height and sex but twice the weight of a slim person.

If, as you say you were also talking generally, your recommended 60 - 80 grams of protein daily would average out as 70 grams. This is a large difference with the average of 55 grams which I gave. You might also find it of note that one of the websites you linked to gives an average of 56 grams of protein p/day for an adult male and 46 grams for the average female.

My guess is that your personal ideas about how much protein it is healthy to consume are slightly outdated, national recommended figures have been coming steadily down now for many years, and I don't doubt that they will drop further before levelling out.

If you honestly believe that it is 'hard' to get enough protein on a diet that doesn't include meat then I would point out that it depends on your deinition of 'hard' when including something in your diet. To you, perhaps it would be hard to eat how others do without feeling like some sort of chore. Personally, I consume a variety of nuts, seeds, wholegrains, pulses and legumes, vegetables, fruit, leaves and many different soy products on a daily basis. I do this not in a concerted effort to obtain enough of anything in particular in my diet, but because I enjoy the flavours and textures they create in my food and it is a pleasure to eat them. Anyone who doesn't eat meat and does find it hard to obtain enough protein is either not eating enough calories in their diet or is obtaining their calories from food devoid of good levels of nutrition, most likely from highly processed or overly starchy foods. This would result in low levels of many essential nutrients and vitamins in addition to protein, whether you be omnivore, vegan or cannibal. My favourite foods are freshly prepared from fresh ingredients, it would be an effort for me to sit around eating cereal, biscuits, crisps and sandwiches all day, so I guess its a matter of preference.


Again i did clear most of this up in my later "essay long" response to the other guy about protein intake conserning vegetarians. So i kinda cleared it up and in a way corrected myself. And what i said is very true. Someone on a vegetarian diet (especially vegan) will have to work harder to achieve protein at the same rate as someone with a more popular diet.

like i said about averages. They are calculating assuming that a person weighs around 65-72 kilograms and average height of around 169cm - 175 cm / ft 9 inches. This if you notice is the bare minimum of the average as a more realistic figure would be starting from 60 grams per day. If i can also add on from experience mosr people including myself are taller than 5ft9 and weigh much more than 70 kilos (of people over the age of 19 that i know of). If you take a more affective range of averages you'll find that the human weight of a person in somewhere like the USA/UK/Europe is between 79 - 90 kilograms and the height of someone of the same region is around 5ft8 - 6ft1. That indicates why i chose my range on values.
others will have said it already but to back up the view: you don't like vegetarians because they make you feel bad about your immoral actions. you'd feel better if everyone was in on the meat, as then it'd be easier to ignore what you deep down know: you are causing immense suffering. you also don't like that there are people there to judge you for eating meat. you'd feel better if everyone accepted your disgusting behaviour and ate meat.

the vegetarians make it obvious that it is possible to live without meat, that there is something wrong with eating it and that you're just eating it because you're a self centred animal, and then they are there to give you the judgement you deserve.
Yes i did originally bring up the morality and ethics topic but it was just to illustrate one of the reasons of vegetarianism and to give my opinions on the conversion to vegetarianism via them. I have also shown why i think peoples morals and beliefs are born from their status in society and also their location. Some of the points that you have made, i did not bring up since i didnt see any need to. But ill address most of them anyway.
Yes morals to an extent can be very subjective. Like i said, you can pretty much have a good guess at someones background, religion etc. Roughly Based on their beliefs and once again morals. So i do agree morals are facts about people once again "to an extent".

As for the possibility of 'another subjective theory'. This question could be clearly answered based on the one before. Ofcourse moral language is affected by a persons past/present situations as so is many things in life, like for example a persons attitude. Along with genetics, an environment can decide alot on someones characteristics. As for the element of prescription the answer is quite obvious. Alot of views on society of what may be right or wrong come attached pretty much as a "prescription" of where ever you may be. Alot of theses views are forced upon via laws and what is socially acceptable/unacceptable by the local community.

Ofcourse its possible to have morals contradict each other. In the world we live in today its more than natural to have different morals, beliefs and views on different things. Therefore its more than possible to have different morals that contradict each other. This not only applies to morals but to everything opinion related. Theres way to much evidence on this. Theres wars over religion, race and even over political parties and views. Yes, the world is and will always be a f***ed up place no doubt.

Im fully aware that animals are moral patients and im also fully aware that the only moral agents that we know off, are adult and non cerebrally damaged humans. I've already said that the scenario was very exaggerated.
My views on infanticide arent relavent. A better question to have asked would have been "why do you think infanticide occurs" or something similar.

I really hope that satisfies you concerning your points/questions that you have brought up.To be honest the questions you have brought up could be classified as rhetorical. There simply isnt a right answer to them. Thats perhaps one of the main reasons why i didnt feel as if i needed to continue because either way, i could carry on forever and there wouldnt be a right or wrong answer. Yes it might not be the best way to approach a debate. But i originally came here just to share my opinion on vegetarianism and such. This however has gone way beyond that and has become more of a study of the human brain.

There is however one question i would like to ask you. You show alot of interest on human behavior, mentality etc...so I'd like to know if your studying anything human studies related? If not then what do you study....and why dont you study something along the lines since you show alot of enthusiam towards it.
Yes, essay. Compared to alot users of these forums it is essay long. If you wonder into alot of debates on these forums you'll find one sentence answers that range from 1 - 10 words and they are usually meaningless or dont contribute to anything.

I didnt disregard most of his post as alot of his post is about how enjoys his vegetarian diet and there wasnt much that needed addressing that didnt involve averages and figures. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th paragraghs were all statistical and the finishing paragraphs were him expressing his preferences which does not need regarding. As it is his preferences and he like everyone else is entitled to them, therefore nothing is needed to be said about them.
Why write a fecking essay trying to get your point across? It's a simple topic which commands a simple response. If you're veggie or vegan or whatever, you have your own reasons for it but you shouldn't preach to anyone about it. If you eat meat, enjoy it, but likewise don't be telling veggie's they're wrong.

I love meat, I'll always eat it, and I don't feel guilty about it because there's no reason I should.
You're comparing someone who enjoys the occassional chicken burger to a Nazi? Very clever.

We're talking about vegetarianism, no? Why don't you stick to that topic, and yeah, it is a simple one.
Reply 91
Giggsy's Girl
Why write a fecking essay trying to get your point across? It's a simple topic which commands a simple response. If you're veggie or vegan or whatever, you have your own reasons for it but you shouldn't preach to anyone about it. If you eat meat, enjoy it, but likewise don't be telling veggie's they're wrong.

I love meat, I'll always eat it, and I don't feel guilty about it because there's no reason I should.


As logn as you'd feel the same way about butchering a human and eating their corpse then go right ahead.
Battery farming is another issue entirely. HOW do you know I don't get my meat/eggs/fish from places with high animal welfare standards?
Mithra
As logn as you'd feel the same way about butchering a human and eating their corpse then go right ahead.


Oh dear oh dear. :sigh:
Reply 94
Message board beef! (sic)

Let me just step over the last few comments of people having pops at eachother and try to clarify a few things for IStruggleWithChemistry.

1) The range of figures you give for a daily protein intake begin their range at higher than what would be the average based on calculations which YOU have set forth and backed up in websites YOU have referenced. By definition, the average should be in the middle.

2) The point I was trying to make whilst discussing my own diet was that if a vegan consumes enough calories for their body each day, from a variety of nutritional whole foods, then the protein pretty much takes care of itself.

3) If an individual finds it 'hard' to get enough protein when cutting out meat/animal products, then by the logic of the above point, the individual is not obtaining the majority of their calories from nutritional wholefoods. This may be through eating enough calories for their body, but from poor nutritional quality food; or eating food with a good nutritional quality but not enough of it. It boils down to 'Is it hard for a vegan to obtain enough calories from healthy food?' If you do not dispute that no, it is not hard at all, then you cannot dispute if a vegan gets enough protein. That is how easy it is.

4) It really is not hard to obtain a higher amount of protein in a vegan diet, even than what you recommend. I have mentioned how by your own argument that daily protein levels should be lower than what you would have me believe, but even if you were to say something far higher like 120 - 140g of protein a day is necessary for the average person's optimum health, it still would not be difficult

5) I have included this final point, because in your original post, you stated that, based on the assumption that it is harder for a vegetarian/vegan to obtain protein in their diet:

"So there i just proved health wise, why consuming meat is right."

This is possibly the most important point, but I want you to pay attention to the 'even if' in this one as I stand by my above points unequivocally.

EVEN IF it were the case that it was hard to obtain protein without animal products, this bears no implication on a moral choice. If it was impossible to get enough protein, then yes, it would be necessary to eat animal products. However, your whole argument is that it is simply harder, and since when does the level of difficulty of a task prove how right or wrong it is?
How can you hate someone strictly because of their diet? I can understand if they were trying to make you feel guilty for eating meat, butif they never tried to "convert" you, then why care? I was a vegetarian for seven years, I just stop about six months ago, and happen to be obsessed with chicken. Nonetheless, who cares? And from personal experience, I would never tell people I was a vegetarian because I would have to hear the same story everytime. People talking about how good meat tastes, and trying to rub it in my face, when I could care less is just childish and ignorant.
Reply 96
sunshineyourlove
Nonetheless, who cares?


I do.

My dietary choices are moral ones, and therefore I don't believe another individual is exempt. I don't go around preaching to strangers, or even to people I know, and I never bring up the topic unless someone else does, but it would be hypocritical of me to suggest that it's not ok for me to eat meat, but everyone else go ahead. I would not sit there and say how I am right and you are wrong, but would perhaps try to understand the reasons for your choices and illustrate the reasons for mine. Of course, I can't force anyone to do anything they don't want to, all I can do is perhaps provide them with a perspective they may not have come across before, and that is all that should be done, there is no need to get preachy about anything by either party.

The attitude of 'you have your beliefs and I'll have mine' is appropriate for many situations but puzzles me in reference to vegetarianism. Yes, there are things which people differ on, and yes freedom of thought/belief/speech is important. By all means, I will defend to the death your right to believe what you want, but that right ends when another gets hurt. The trouble with simply saying that it is your right to believe in eating animals is that the only party who has anything at stake here - the animal - is not agreeing to your demands. It advocates that might is right.
Reply 97
why do people think all vegetarians love animals? I'm a vegetarian and I don't give a **** about animal rights and all that crap, I don't eat meat because I don't like it.
you are so sad. grow up.
Feel the wrath of my fellow vegetarians lol :whip:

:bl:

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