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'Does Islam oppress women?'

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    (Original post by Google)
    about slaves, Islam has rules to encourage manumission of slaves, after few years Islame came, you could not find slaves in the Islamic society, people used to have slaves before Islam, after that its not possible having slaves
    Then why was slavery only officially abolished in Arabian countries in the last sixty years and still exist in practise in African countries?
    men can not just beat their wives just when they want or just to beat them
    its more a way to show anger without causing any hurt
    Beatings do not cause hurt? An easier and much less painful way of showing anger is to say "I am angry because..." and find out precisely why they are angry.
    testimony of a woman is not half of the man
    you can not measure it like this
    Then how do you measure it?
    but, since women in their nature would let their emotions to affect their decisions, so it needs two women to testify
    given the fact that men are more often violent than women it looks objectively as though men are more prone to let their emotions affect their judgment, actually.
    inheritance, in many cases women inherits more than men, it depends on the case.
    Instances under islamic law, please.
    women must obey their husbands as you must obey your parents, and small kids must obey thier elder brothers and sisters
    So a husband has the same power over his wife that a parent does over a small child? Please justify this rather than asserting it.
    and who told you more women are going to hell, this is not right
    Bukhari 2. 24. 541
    Quran, in the majority of verses, uses the words Muslims, Believers....
    which is both women and men
    and in some verses Quran used the words
    women Muslims, women believers
    Again: where are there passages explicitly addressed to women telling them how to behave, not passoages telling men how to make their women behave?
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Just a few points:
    Nor is male circumcision.
    Well, okay, but I was referring to cultural traditions people referred to as being muslim and oppressive to women.

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    How far is something that happens almost entirely in islamic countires and is justified on islamic grounds actually unislamic, though?.
    How far is Hitler unchristian?

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    The pharoah was not a muslim, however.
    Wouldn't the same apply to any man who behaves unislamically?

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    What makes you think obedience "is all in the translation"? Translations give the meaning of the original and every version in every language seems to assume that women must obey their husbands.
    But looking at the word 'obey' it does infer inferiority and mindless obedience- no say in any matters at all.

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Except that there is a continuum from arranged to forced marriage- again, the assumptions underlying islamic attitudes to women [which is that women are- if not property- controllable by men] help to make this easier to accept. 4:19 itself assumkes that women and their inheritance must be controlled by men.
    Not really. Allah lays down the rules, which should be implemented by the authorities.

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Well, many muslims define human rights differently to other people: indeed, you will find muslims concerned about god's rights as much as human rights.
    Well yes. But I get sick of people saying muslims never come out and speak against terrorism or human rights abuses when clearly they do. I do, my family do, muslims of my acquaintance do, muslims on television do, and although most of the air time goes to Abu Hamza(he has a hook!) and the like I still get annoyed by people who say no-one condemns it.

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Except that I think you will find that most muslims apply it as meaning beat in principle and in practise. Presumably they find what they look for- which should not be possible with a clear and easy to understand book.
    It's possible with anything. I don't know the quote (you're going to have to trust me I suppose) but I remember in the Qu'ran it says that 'Allah leads astray those who choose to go astray' meaning (i believe) that people believe what they choose to believe.

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Most? Which are addressed to women at all- as I said, is there any part of the kotan adddressed to women alone? Not just how to treat women but what to expect from women.
    When it says 'women believers should' that's pretty much addressed to the women.
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    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    Allah's Messenger(pbuh) said

    'Whoever beleives in Allah and the Last day should not harm his neighbour.And I command you you to take care of the women, for they are created from a rib, and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part;if you try to straighten it, you will break it and if you leave it, it will remain crooked, so i command you to take care of your women'
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    Well, okay, but I was referring to cultural traditions people referred to as being muslim and oppressive to women.
    There is the question of how far traditions are muslim even if they aren't based on the koran: after all, I don't think there are many uncircumcised male muslims and I don't think that the argument that it isn't mentioned in the koran would be very effective as a way to avoid circumcision.


    How far is Hitler unchristian?
    Not a very good- or effective- analogy, actually. Hitler only happened once. He announced that he was not a christian and exercised tight control over xtian churches too. His beliefs were a weird mishmash of misunderstood [nonchristian] occultist and pseudoscientific theories. There are quite enough unpleasant truths you could tell about xtianity without needing to mention Hitler.



    Wouldn't the same apply to any man who behaves unislamically?
    Surely then a woman would be compelled to disobey him and eventually leave him. The important thing is that her duty of subordination to god outweighs her duty of subordination to her husband. Isn't there a theory that someone who behaves seriously unislmically is actually an apostate? The fact remains that it seems to give muslim men power over "their" women.


    But looking at the word 'obey' it does infer inferiority and mindless obedience- no say in any matters at all.
    Hold on! you put me in the embarassing position of defending islam! As used of god, then, yes, "obey" does suggest mindless obedience and no say ["And Allah knows best"]. Here, it does suggest an inferior position, but the very fact that beating is a last resort suggests that persuasion and argument are to be used first. The suggestion is, i think, that men know better rather than best.


    Not really. Allah lays down the rules, which should be implemented by the authorities.
    I think the assumption is that men are the authorities where women are concerned.


    Well yes. But I get sick of people saying muslims never come out and speak against terrorism or human rights abuses when clearly they do. I do, my family do, muslims of my acquaintance do, muslims on television do, and although most of the air time goes to Abu Hamza(he has a hook!) and the like I still get annoyed by people who say no-one condemns it.
    Sorry, I was speaking about islam and its teachings generally and general principles of human rights rather than about the current situation.


    It's possible with anything. I don't know the quote (you're going to have to trust me I suppose) but I remember in the Qu'ran it says that 'Allah leads astray those who choose to go astray' meaning (i believe) that people believe what they choose to believe.
    Come across it myself. Another ambiguous phrase actually; I'd interpret it as meaning people choose to believe what Allah chooses for them to believe.


    When it says 'women believers should' that's pretty much addressed to the women.
    Is it? I think that where it speaks of what muslim women should do it is always or nearly always addressed to men as to what they should permit "their" women to do. I don't know, but wouldn't it be possible to interpret the whole koran as addressed to men in fact?
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    (Original post by zaaks786)
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    Allah's Messenger(pbuh) said

    'Whoever beleives in Allah and the Last day should not harm his neighbour.And I command you you to take care of the women, for they are created from a rib, and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part;if you try to straighten it, you will break it and if you leave it, it will remain crooked, so i command you to take care of your women'
    [my emphasis]
    Again, it suggests that it is men who are responsible for women and should control them.
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    (Original post by zaaks786)
    Whoever beleives in Allah and the Last day should not harm his neighbour.
    I do not believe in Allah or the Last Day and yet I do not harm my neighbour. Does that make me a better person than someone who doesn't harm their neighbour out of self interest because they want to get to heaven?

    (Original post by zaaks786)
    And I command you you to take care of the women, for they are created from a rib, and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part;if you try to straighten it, you will break it and if you leave it, it will remain crooked, so i command you to take care of your women'
    Interesting, women were created from a rib - I'd like to see them try that in the laboratory. Do you not think that this has perhaps led to some of the mistreatment and persecution of women? After all, a being created from a rib taken from another being which was created by a God would not be seen as important as a being created directly by God. Apart from being a load of nonsense I can also see how that little theological quip might have caused problems for women over the centuries. And as Weejimmie points out, "your women" - why is a woman defined as belonging to a man? Women do not belong to men and this attitude has largely been eradicated in the West. It's just another example though of where Islam holds back social progress.
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    Is the Pope Catholic?
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    (Original post by zaaks786)
    Can i just ask...wen u are comparing Women in Islam...who do u compare them to?...women in 'the west'?

    and how can u just assume that all men beat their wives, esp in islam....open your eyes and ull see that in this country their are so many shelters etc for women who are abused on a daily basis by their partners...in islam a women has to be looked after by her husband and has to be treated with kindness and respect.......a man should not enter marriage nless he knows that he can treat his women right........the punishments for beating your wife or anyone for that matter are severe....

    'The best of you are those who are best in dealing with their wives, and I am best in dealing with my wives'
    Hello,
    I do not think it would be a fair and precise evaluation if I compare Muslim women to Christian women (or women from any other religion) as we are looking at completely different cultures and views. The main comparism I am doing is what the Qur'an says and what actually goes on.
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    (Original post by ruthiepooos)
    Hello,
    I do not think it would be a fair and precise evaluation if I compare Muslim women to Christian women (or women from any other religion) as we are looking at completely different cultures and views. The main comparism I am doing is what the Qur'an says and what actually goes on.

    oh yeah, okey dokey, thts wat ur papers about...no i was jus mentioning in reference to wat alot of othe ppl were saying
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Is the Pope Catholic?
    Great minds....http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...10&postcount=5
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    i think this might be interesting as alot of ppl always tlk about wat a wife must do for her husband. ...here is the other side(wat a muslim man shud do for his wife :rolleyes: :

    The Prophet (saw) said: “The best of you is the one who is best to his wives,
    and I am the best of you toward my wives.”

    He (pbuh) also said: ‘No one is genuine towards women except the generous
    man and no one humiliates them except the one who is very rude.”

    The duties of the husband towards his wife:

    1. Offering a beautiful reception when entering the home, like starting
    with the Islamic greeting ‘assalamu alykum’ with a cheerful smile,
    shaking her hand and hugging her.

    2. Using sweet and enchanting speech with her ... making sure to take
    care of her and making her feel special. Make your speech clear (repeat
    yourself if necessary) and call her with the best of names she likes; my
    honey, my darling etc.

    3. Despite your workload, create time for friendliness and recreation ... it
    was the practice of the prophet (pbuh) to befriend and spend time
    together with his wives, despite his workload and huge responsibilities.

    4. Play games and distractions with each other ... the hadith of the
    prophet (pbuh) states: “All things in which there is no mention of Allah are
    frivolity, absent-mindedness, and idle play except for four things: A man being
    playful with his wife, training his horse, walking between two purposeful goals,
    and teaching another to swim.”

    5. Assistance in the household ... to participate and help your wife with
    the household duties, like buying food, preparing food, cleaning and

    6 organizing the house, etc. This brings happiness to the wife and
    strengthens your love and relations together.

    6. Consult her ... the opinion of Umm Salamah during Sulah Al-
    Hudaybiyah is a well-known event. It was the method of the prophet
    (pbuh) to consult with his wives and friends.

    7. Accompany the wife along whilst visiting relatives, friends, and people
    of righteousness.

    8. The manners of travel and leaving the wife behind ... if you can’t take
    her with you, offer her a warm farewell ... leave her with sufficient means
    and money. Ask trustworthy individuals to look after the needs of your
    family in your absence ... ask her to pray for you ... be in touch with her
    often ... minimize your travel to what is necessary and bring her a gift
    when you return. Try not to return at night or at an unexpected time.

    9. Financial support ... be generous in your household spending (within
    financial capabilities). Good financial support (not wasteful) tends to
    stabilize marriages.

    10. Good smelling and beautification ... Allah (swt) is Beautiful and He
    loves beauty and cleanliness. Always be clean, neat and adorn perfume.
    Ibn Abbas (ra) said: ‘I love to beautify myself for my wife as much as I love her
    to beautify herself for me.’

    11. Intercourse ... it is the duty of the husband to suffice his wife with her
    emotional and sexual needs and desires... perhaps once every time the
    wife is pure but be considerate of her physical and physiological health.

    12. Genuine care ... the Muslim husband should be very caring and
    sentimental towards his wife. The wife goes through various

    physiological and psychological changes ... she is in need of a cheerful
    smile and genuine care to wipe away her pain and her low feelings.

    13. Guarding the privacy of marriage ... it was narrated in the hadith of
    Abu Sa’eed Al-Khudry that the prophet (pbuh) said: “Verily among the
    worst of people in status before Allah on the day of Resurrection is the man who
    goes to his wife and she comes to him for sex, and then he divulges her secrets (of
    the bed).”

    14. Working together in the obedience of Allah: pray collectively together
    and engage yourselves in activities of worship, like offering generous
    donations, ‘dhikr’ (remembrance of Allah), and praying at night ‘qiyamul-
    layl.’ The prophet (pbuh) says: “May the mercy of Allah be upon a man
    who wakes up at night to pray and wakes his wife up to pray with him, and if she
    refuses he splashes water into her face.”

    15. Show respect to your wife’s family and her friends.

    16. Educate your wife about Islam and offer her your advice.

    17. Admirable jealousy.

    18. Patience and softness with the wife ... control your anger and always
    give her the benefit of the doubt, and advise her whenever she does
    mistakes.

    19. Forgiveness and appropriate criticism where applicable.

    20. To be a genuine Muslim husband and to apply all of which you have
    read and understood with wisdom.


    and this is just light reading...no need to come back with an argument against it.... :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Great minds....http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...10&postcount=5
    Haha!!! Amazing!!
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    I hate these kind of debates. is islam evil? is christianity evil? etc etc...

    All the main religion run on principles of peace and love etc etc... thats all you need to know. so stop criticizong other peoples religions, its their beliefs and they should be respected. full stop.
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    (Original post by markgg)
    I hate these kind of debates. is islam evil? is christianity evil? etc etc...

    All the main religion run on principles of peace and love etc etc... thats all you need to know. so stop criticizong other peoples religions, its their beliefs and they should be respected. full stop.
    Please don't misjudge the nature of this thread.
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    (Original post by zaaks786)
    i think this might be interesting as alot of ppl always tlk about wat a wife must do for her husband. ...here is the other side(wat a muslim man shud do for his wife :rolleyes: :

    The Prophet (saw) said: “The best of you is the one who is best to his wives,
    and I am the best of you toward my wives.”

    He (pbuh) also said: ‘No one is genuine towards women except the generous
    man and no one humiliates them except the one who is very rude.”

    The duties of the husband towards his wife:

    1. Offering a beautiful reception when entering the home, like starting
    with the Islamic greeting ‘assalamu alykum’ with a cheerful smile,
    shaking her hand and hugging her.

    2. Using sweet and enchanting speech with her ... making sure to take
    care of her and making her feel special. Make your speech clear (repeat
    yourself if necessary) and call her with the best of names she likes; my
    honey, my darling etc.

    3. Despite your workload, create time for friendliness and recreation ... it
    was the practice of the prophet (pbuh) to befriend and spend time
    together with his wives, despite his workload and huge responsibilities.

    4. Play games and distractions with each other ... the hadith of the
    prophet (pbuh) states: “All things in which there is no mention of Allah are
    frivolity, absent-mindedness, and idle play except for four things: A man being
    playful with his wife, training his horse, walking between two purposeful goals,
    and teaching another to swim.”

    5. Assistance in the household ... to participate and help your wife with
    the household duties, like buying food, preparing food, cleaning and

    6 organizing the house, etc. This brings happiness to the wife and
    strengthens your love and relations together.

    6. Consult her ... the opinion of Umm Salamah during Sulah Al-
    Hudaybiyah is a well-known event. It was the method of the prophet
    (pbuh) to consult with his wives and friends.

    7. Accompany the wife along whilst visiting relatives, friends, and people
    of righteousness.

    8. The manners of travel and leaving the wife behind ... if you can’t take
    her with you, offer her a warm farewell ... leave her with sufficient means
    and money. Ask trustworthy individuals to look after the needs of your
    family in your absence ... ask her to pray for you ... be in touch with her
    often ... minimize your travel to what is necessary and bring her a gift
    when you return. Try not to return at night or at an unexpected time.

    9. Financial support ... be generous in your household spending (within
    financial capabilities). Good financial support (not wasteful) tends to
    stabilize marriages.

    10. Good smelling and beautification ... Allah (swt) is Beautiful and He
    loves beauty and cleanliness. Always be clean, neat and adorn perfume.
    Ibn Abbas (ra) said: ‘I love to beautify myself for my wife as much as I love her
    to beautify herself for me.’

    11. Intercourse ... it is the duty of the husband to suffice his wife with her
    emotional and sexual needs and desires... perhaps once every time the
    wife is pure but be considerate of her physical and physiological health.

    12. Genuine care ... the Muslim husband should be very caring and
    sentimental towards his wife. The wife goes through various

    physiological and psychological changes ... she is in need of a cheerful
    smile and genuine care to wipe away her pain and her low feelings.

    13. Guarding the privacy of marriage ... it was narrated in the hadith of
    Abu Sa’eed Al-Khudry that the prophet (pbuh) said: “Verily among the
    worst of people in status before Allah on the day of Resurrection is the man who
    goes to his wife and she comes to him for sex, and then he divulges her secrets (of
    the bed).”

    14. Working together in the obedience of Allah: pray collectively together
    and engage yourselves in activities of worship, like offering generous
    donations, ‘dhikr’ (remembrance of Allah), and praying at night ‘qiyamul-
    layl.’ The prophet (pbuh) says: “May the mercy of Allah be upon a man
    who wakes up at night to pray and wakes his wife up to pray with him, and if she
    refuses he splashes water into her face.”

    15. Show respect to your wife’s family and her friends.

    16. Educate your wife about Islam and offer her your advice.

    17. Admirable jealousy.

    18. Patience and softness with the wife ... control your anger and always
    give her the benefit of the doubt, and advise her whenever she does
    mistakes.

    19. Forgiveness and appropriate criticism where applicable.

    20. To be a genuine Muslim husband and to apply all of which you have
    read and understood with wisdom.


    and this is just light reading...no need to come back with an argument against it.... :rolleyes:
    Is this from the Qur'an or later writings?
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    (Original post by markgg)
    I hate these kind of debates. is islam evil? is christianity evil? etc etc...

    All the main religion run on principles of peace and love etc etc... thats all you need to know. so stop criticizong other peoples religions, its their beliefs and they should be respected. full stop.
    Thats one view, another one is, "no they arent, lets debate them".
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    im not misjudging the thread, im just pointing out that you cannot critisize a religion like islam, with the positive principles that it entails.

    if people interpret their religion in a wrong way, that can be criticized, so you cant argue that islam oppresses women. You maybe could say that countries that are prodominently muslim, oppress women. But you will probably find that they oppress all of their citizens thus making it a political issue, and not a religous one.
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    (Original post by markgg)
    im not misjudging the thread, im just pointing out that you cannot critisize a religion like islam, with the positive principles that it entails.
    I can, will and have done.
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    (Original post by ruthiepooos)
    Is this from the Qur'an or later writings?

    I think its made up based on the Prophets(pbuh) teachings and his conduct but he did learn from the Quraan...
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    The Prophet (saw) said: “The best of you is the one who is best to his wives,
    and I am the best of you toward my wives. I am also very modest.”

    He (pbuh) also said: ‘No one is genuine towards women except the generous
    man and no one humiliates them except the one who is very rude. You can however hit them occasionally with a toothbrush


    I know I shouldn't have done it, but I couldn't resist. OK, the words in bold are my additions.
Updated: August 27, 2005
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