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'Does Islam oppress women?'

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    i think thts really rude-u cnt jus make up ur own parts coz ur jus playing around nw..nt takin it seriously
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    (Original post by giordano)
    He (pbuh) also said: ‘No one is genuine towards women except the generous
    man and no one humiliates them except the one who is very rude. You can however hit them occasionally with a toothbrush


    I know I shouldn't have done it, but I couldn't resist. OK, the words in bold are my additions.

    I dealt with the whole toothbrush issue already, so please try to resist the 'wife-beating toothbrush' jokes.

    and a lot of the hadith are not accurate, anyway so generally only the ones in accordance with the Qu'ran should be given credence.


    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    There is the question of how far traditions are muslim even if they aren't based on the koran: after all, I don't think there are many uncircumcised male muslims and I don't think that the argument that it isn't mentioned in the koran would be very effective as a way to avoid circumcision.
    Male circumcision is taken from the Jewish tradition, and that's really nothing like female circumcision.

    (Original post by Vienna and Howard)
    Is the Pope Catholic?
    Very helpful. And I think I already said on the 'Is the Pope a Catholic?' thread, that he may very well not be, it's a matter of personal belief.
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    (Original post by ayaan)

    Male circumcision is taken from the Jewish tradition, and that's really nothing like female circumcision.
    Well, no: I think you'll find that all of the nonmuslim cultures that practise female circumcision also practise male circumcision, so the custom may simply have been retained without the jewish precedent, and in islam both rest on precedent and custom mentioned in hadith, so the fact that something is not koranic is not necessarily proof that it isn't islamic.
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    (Original post by zaaks786)
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    Allah's Messenger(pbuh) said

    'Whoever beleives in Allah and the Last day should not harm his neighbour.And I command you you to take care of the women, for they are created from a rib, and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part;if you try to straighten it, you will break it and if you leave it, it will remain crooked, so i command you to take care of your women'
    An interesting point here: just how reliable is this hadith? Isn't the belief that Eve was made from Adam's rib a judaeo-christian one and not muslim at all? I'd always understood that the muslim belief was that the two were made separately and at the same time.

    Zaaks: the problem with what you say in post 211 is- again- that it seems to assume that every woman has a different set of qualities and a different amount of these qualities from every man. That obviously isn't so. If every woman and every man naturally had all of the characteristics ascribed to and required of all men and all women in the koran there would be no need to tell them what to do: by their very nature they would behave like that naturally and inevitably. Again, they don't, so the division of the sexes is obviously based on a fallacy.
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    (Original post by markgg)
    I hate these kind of debates. is islam evil? is christianity evil? etc etc...

    All the main religion run on principles of peace and love etc etc...
    Unfortunately, they also incorporate quite a few other principles as well
    thats all you need to know. so stop criticizong other peoples religions, its their beliefs and they should be respected. full stop.
    All beliefs should be respected, full stop?
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    An interesting point here: just how reliable is this hadith? Isn't the belief that Eve was made from Adam's rib a judaeo-christian one and not muslim at all? I'd always understood that the muslim belief was that the two were made separately and at the same time.
    Yes. At least that's not what's written in the Qu'ran.

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Well, no: I think you'll find that all of the nonmuslim cultures that practise female circumcision also practise male circumcision, so the custom may simply have been retained without the jewish precedent, and in islam both rest on precedent and custom mentioned in hadith, so the fact that something is not koranic is not necessarily proof that it isn't islamic.
    Yes, but all the ones that practice male circumcision DON'T practice female circumcision. The Qu'ran is complete in itself, so anything else, while it may be acceptable(male circumcision) or unnacceptable(female circumcision) under Islam cannot be called 'islamic' as such.

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    All beliefs should be respected, full stop?
    No! Well as long as no-one is being harmed I suppose.
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    Yes, but all the ones that practice male circumcision DON'T practice female circumcision. The Qu'ran is complete in itself, so anything else, while it may be acceptable(male circumcision) or unnacceptable(female circumcision) under Islam cannot be called 'islamic' as such.
    "Not all the ones that practise male circumcision practise female circumcision", surely. I think that if you suggested that male circumcision is merely acceptable rather than obligatory not many muslsims would agree with you.

    (Original post by me)
    All beliefs shoud be respected, full stop?
    No! Well as long as no-one is being harmed I suppose.
    Well, as many beliefs do advocate harming people who disagree with them, it looks as if we both disagree with Markgg.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    "Not all the ones that practise male circumcision practise female circumcision", surely. I think that if you suggested that male circumcision is merely acceptable rather than obligatory not many muslsims would agree with you.
    Yes, I knew my grammar was a bit off there, what say we just move on?


    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Well, as many beliefs do advocate harming people who disagree with them, it looks as if we both disagree with Markgg.
    Well I think I might agree with what he's trying to say, it just wasn't put very well.
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    Yes, I knew my grammar was a bit off there, what say we just move on?
    Certainly. however, as you seem to agree that male circumcision seems to be obligatory, for all its nonkoranic justifications, i may well use it as an example in later debates.


    Well I think I might agree with what he's trying to say, it just wasn't put very well.
    I've never been sure which causes more trouble in the world: things which aren't put very well or things which are put too well.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Certainly. however, as you seem to agree that male circumcision seems to be obligatory, for all its nonkoranic justifications, i may well use it as an example in later debates.
    I haven't got a lot of experience in this field, having no younger brothers but there doesn't seem to be any harm in it-as long as you know what you're doing- and I always thought it was inherited from Jewish(and early christian) tradition.

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    i may well use it as an example in later debates.
    Bring it on.

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    I've never been sure which causes more trouble in the world: things which aren't put very well or things which are put too well.
    I have nothing to say to this really, it just looks like a good quote.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    An interesting point here: just how reliable is this hadith? Isn't the belief that Eve was made from Adam's rib a judaeo-christian one and not muslim at all? I'd always understood that the muslim belief was that the two were made separately and at the same time..
    Yes...but u hve to remember tht islam was a natural progression from judeism and christianity and muslims and chritians and jews believe in many of the same prophets etc....
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    I haven't got a lot of experience in this field, having no younger brothers but there doesn't seem to be any harm in it-as long as you know what you're doing- and I always thought it was inherited from Jewish(and early christian) tradition.
    Sorry: I meant religiously obligatory in islam. Medically it is very seldom necessary and without antisepsis both male and female circumcision probably often had unpleasant side-effects. One of my wife's sisters died as a baby from an overenthusiastic operation. circumcision certainly isn't part of christian tradition: it was precisely the abandonment of distinction between cicumcised and uncircumcised- between jew and gentile- that was the origin of christianity because it meant they could more easily recruit gentiles.
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    (Original post by zaaks786)
    Yes...but u hve to remember tht islam was a natural progression from judeism and christianity and muslims and chritians and jews believe in many of the same prophets etc....
    Only to a nonmuslim. To a muslim it is a restoration of original natural religion. The important thing here is that there are two completely separate beliefs about the origin of women. The judaeo-christian doctrine then was that a woman is "a rib"- a mere part of man and a natural subordinate- whereas the muslim idea is that they are created as equal and women are subordinate only at god's orders and on precise terms.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Sorry: I meant religiously obligatory in islam. Medically it is very seldom necessary and without antisepsis both male and female circumcision probably often had unpleasant side-effects. One of my wife's sisters died as a baby from an overenthusiastic operation. circumcision certainly isn't part of christian tradition: it was precisely the abandonment of distinction between cicumcised and uncircumcised- between jew and gentile- that was the origin of christianity because it meant they could more easily recruit gentiles.
    But didn't Jesus stick to all the basic rules of Judaism and require his followers to do so too? I thought it was Saint Paul who abandoned the Jewish customs like kosher food etc. to attract followers.
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    Paul did that, but he found justification for abandoning the jewish customs in what Christ said, I think. It doesn't matter which actually abandoned circumcision, though: it isn't a christian tradition or custom and it's had nigh on a couple of thousand years not being one.
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    I dealt with the whole toothbrush issue already, so please try to resist the 'wife-beating toothbrush' jokes.

    and a lot of the hadith are not accurate, anyway so generally only the ones in accordance with the Qu'ran should be given credence..
    Sorry about the joke: more seriously, here are some wife-beating ahadith. Since the Quran (4.34) advises believers to beat their wives (OK, as a last resort) I would say that these ahadith are not in contrast with the Quran.

    # "Iyas Dhubab reported the apostle of Allah as saying: "Do not beat Allah's handmaidens", but when Umar came to the apostle of Allah and said: "Women have become emboldened towards their husbands", he (the prophet), gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the apostle of Allah complaining against their husbands. So the apostle of Allah said, "Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you". (Hadith Of The Sunan Of Abu Dawud, Chapter 709 - On Beating Women, #2141)

    # "Umar reported the prophet as saying: "A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife". (Hadith Of The Sunan Of Abu Dawud, Chapter 709 - On Beating Women, #2142)

    # On 2142: "This means that a man tries his best to correct his wife, but if she fails to do so, he is allowed to beat her as a last resort. This tradition never means that a husband should beat his wife without any valid reason". (Abu Dawud's notes on Hadith Of The Sunan Of Abu Dawud, Chapter 709 - On Beating Women, #2141)

    # "You have rights over your wives, and they have rights over you. You have the right that they should not defile your bed and that they should not behave with open unseemliness. If they do, God allows you to put them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not with severity. If they refrain from these things and obey you, they have right to their food and clothing with kindness. Lay injunctions on women kindly, for they are your wards having no control of their persons." (Muhammad's Farewell Address, Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah", Guillaume's translation, page 651)

    There are surely many more.
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    Where did u gt these Hadiths from?I dunno the genuinity of these if they are Sahih or Da'3eef..tht means strong or weak..
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    (Original post by doodle)
    Where did u gt these Hadiths from?I dunno the genuinity of these if they are Sahih or Da'3eef..tht means strong or weak..
    You will have to make up your own mind on that. Abu Dawud is considered as quite reliable, and the Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq is the most widely appreciated early biography of the prophet.

    There are some Muslims who don't recognise the authority of ahadith; but this does not change the situation with regard to wife-beating; in fact, the ahadith are mostly more moderate than the Quran, by specifying how the wife has to be hit (leave no bruises, not on the face, use a toothbrush etc) while the Quran (4.34) just says: beat her.
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    (Original post by Zuber)
    this sacred text was revealed in a time where women couldnt inherit NOTHING or give testimonies. therefore at the time it was a step in the right direction towards equality. today this isnt as applicable - i believe this was written in the quran to START the ball rolling for women's equality and hence, we shouldnt take this to be applicable for all of time..
    I can agree with you that in 7th century Arabia the Quran was progressive and favourable to women's position. The problem is, that today it has become an obstacle rather than anything else.

    Life would be much easier for Muslim women if the Quran didn't contain certain verses (starting with 4.34 of course). So, this begs the question: if the Quran is a revelation for all times and for all people, why should god include verses which, as you say, are so specifically tied to a certain timeframe and geographical location? since it's supposed to be the last revelation, shouldn't god have given us prescriptions of a more permanent validity?
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    (Original post by giordano)
    I can agree with you that in 7th century Arabia the Quran was progressive and favourable to women's position. The problem is, that today it has become an obstacle rather than anything else.
    thank you giordano for being the first to say this (along with me).
    Life would be much easier for Muslim women if the Quran didn't contain certain verses (starting with 4.34 of course). So, this begs the question: if the Quran is a revelation for all times and for all people, why should god include verses which, as you say, are so specifically tied to a certain timeframe and geographical location? since it's supposed to be the last revelation, shouldn't god have given us prescriptions of a more permanent validity?
    let me use yet another excuse: God is transcendant. we dont know what's going on in his mind. However what i do believe is if you mix the specific rules of the quran (ie rules of women) with the overall teachings of equality, i think it infers that the rules are meant to be constantly advancing to achieve equality that the quran talks of.
    i know ppl will now argue that the quran is 100% literal so nothing should be inferred. oh well.
Updated: August 27, 2005
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