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'Does Islam oppress women?'

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    it really is vile when muslims attempt to play upon words, wriggling and twisting in an attempt to escape the fundamental message in their holy scripture that is IS right to beat and mistreat women, and it IS right to persecute Jews in particular and infidels in general. You cannot update a barbaric and antiquated relgion for more civilised times.
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    But in respect to the words in bold, [the exact and absolute division of male and female roles] there's not an absolutedivision of male/female roles just diffrent responsibilities. Women are allowed to work especially to try to improve their community/society but it's not required and any money they make belongs soley to themselves unless they choose to share it.
    Sorry- i didn't cover myself properly there- i meant the exact and absolute division of male and female qualities and the resulting division of roles. The claim- which i've pointed out 'til everyone is probably fed up- that the differences in qualities between men and women are absolute and not comparative and the assumption that there is a bigger difference between the two sexes than there is within them is simply not true. Again, it could be a matter of cultural translation through history; after all accurate statistical analysis isn't part of a madrassa's education. Actually, thinking about god's qualities, following on from god not needing to think, god wouldn't need statistical knowledge either: a being with absolute knowledge of everything wouldn't needstatistics which compares and highlights trends and differences.
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    (Original post by arranque)
    it really is vile when muslims attempt to play upon words, wriggling and twisting in an attempt to escape the fundamental message in their holy scripture that is IS right to beat and mistreat women, and it IS right to persecute Jews in particular and infidels in general. You cannot update a barbaric and antiquated relgion for more civilised times.
    You can update it. What you cannot do is selectively ignore or reinterpret parts of the Quran that you find uncomfortable, while suggesting this holy book is the word of God and should not be mistreated.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Can you give me a post number?
    I can understand why you wouldnt want to trawl through all of this, so:

    Obedience : 242

    Beating (and a lot of other issues): 196
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    "accept physical abuse?"
    IT DOES NOT EXIST TO SEE IT

    it was clearly explained before
    if your kid acted in a way you do not accept you would take an action against him

    its the same idea her(somehow)

    if my wife insist doing something I would not accept(reasonably) I should talke to her
    if this did not work I would stop talking to her for a while to let her think of it
    and if this did not work
    I would beat her very gently not in tearm to hurt her
    but to show her that I really resist what she is doing

    similarly

    if I do something my wife would not accept(reasonably)
    she would take to me
    if this did not work she would talke to the elders in the family
    and if this did not work
    she has the right to take a legal action against me
    and if the judge found me hurting her and I would not stop it
    he would force me to devorce her(if she wanted so)

    sorry for my weak English
    but I hope I made myselfe clear enough
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    You can update it. What you cannot do is selectively ignore or reinterpret parts of the Quran that you find uncomfortable, while suggesting this holy book is the word of God and should not be mistreated.
    yeah, thats sort of what i was getting at, in a less articulate manner. However, Since the Quran is so untouchable, how can they possibly update it to make it acceptable without distorting its key message thus implicity disrespecting it?
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    Beating (and a lot of other issues): 196
    Ive read it, I replied to it. You mention that there is an 'implication' that sticks should not be used to physically punish ones wife. Are there any implications that pertain to beating with fists or any physical abuse whatsoever?
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    (Original post by arranque)
    it really is vile when muslims attempt to play upon words, wriggling and twisting in an attempt to escape the fundamental message in their holy scripture that is IS right to beat and mistreat women, and it IS right to persecute Jews in particular and infidels in general. You cannot update a barbaric and antiquated relgion for more civilised times.
    I'll assume you're talking to me here, which is very sad(in a sorrowful, not pathetic way) So you mean I'M 'vile' as you say and the people who actually do the whole persecution thing aren't, and go on to say that they're the real muslims and my beliefs and interpretations aren't valid, therefore anything I say that makes sense can be dismissed as unislamic.

    I'm sick to death of trying to be fair and balanced in this forum, and having to defend everything I believe when people such as yourself make horrible unsubstantiated and hate-filled comments like that without being held accountable because your views coincide with the majority.
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    (Original post by Google)
    I would beat her very gently not in tearm to hurt her
    but to show her that I really resist what she is doing
    Therefore this is not physical abuse?

    What do you think of domestic violence?
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    they're the real muslims and my beliefs and interpretations aren't valid, therefore anything I say that makes sense can be dismissed as unislamic.
    That seems to be the general impression given.

    I'm sick to death of trying to be fair and balanced in this forum, and having to defend everything I believe when people such as yourself make horrible unsubstantiated and hate-filled comments like that without being held accountable because your views coincide with the majority.
    If he made a personally insulting comment he would be moderated like anyone else, irrespective of whether anyone else shared his opinion. While the term 'vile' is probably misplaced, his opinion appears to be one of logic: you cannot discard or ignore parts of the Quran, supposedly the word of god, and call yourself a muslim.
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    (Original post by Google)

    if my wife insist doing something I would not accept(reasonably) I should talke to her
    if this did not work I would stop talking to her for a while to let her think of it
    and if this did not work
    I would beat her very gently not in tearm to hurt her
    but to show her that I really resist what she is doing

    oh my god, how about i would just very gently rape a woman who was not dressed suitably in the street, very gently you understand, so as not for it not to be unbearable? just to let her know that it is not appropriate to expose any flesh so as not to tempt pious and devout males? Not for any sinister motives, you understand.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Ive read it, I replied to it. You mention that there is an 'implication' that sticks should not be used to physically punish ones wife. Are there any implications that pertain to beating with fists or any physical abuse whatsoever?
    Well I'm not sure I know what you're getting at, but I'll try to answer.
    The most important thing in a marriage is mutual respect as is said in the Qu'ran. I think I used the quote earlier from surah 4. How can respect be possible if one participant in the marriage can abuse the other with no consequences? The action mentioned is a tap that doesn't laeve a bruise, it's more psychological than physical, or alternatively is taken to mean bringing up a divorce if problems reach this stage, which makes sense in the context of the next verse which deals with divorce. As is said later in the surah, if the woman recieves any ill-treatment amounting to lack of respect for her person, she is within her rights to go to the courts for a divorce or bring family members in to counsel them.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Therefore this is not physical abuse?

    What do you think of domestic violence?
    when you punish your kid by not allowing to watch TV for a while
    or not giving him candy
    ......
    would you call that physical abuse?

    I watch a documantary on BBC World about the most modern mean to punish kids, its called "Time Out" which is putting the kid in his roo ma lone for a min of every year of his age
    one wouldsee this aggressive
    whilest another one would see it effective
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    (Original post by Google)
    when you punish your kid by not allowing to watch TV for a while
    or not giving him candy
    ......
    would you call that physical abuse?

    I watch a documantary on BBC World about the most modern mean to punish kids, its called "Time Out" which is putting the kid in his roo ma lone for a min of every year of his age
    one wouldsee this aggressive
    whilest another one would see it effective
    I distinctly quoted your statement in regard to BEATING. Youre ignoring it AGAIN.
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    (Original post by arranque)
    oh my god, how about i would just very gently rape a woman who was not dressed suitably in the street, very gently you understand, so as not for it not to be unbearable? just to let her know that it is not appropriate to expose any flesh so as not to tempt pious and devout males? Not for any sinister motives, you understand.
    you can not compare hitting with a small branch in size of a pencill with no hurting to rape

    try to be fair
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    That seems to be the general impression given.
    How?

    (Original post by Vienna)
    If he made a personally insulting comment he would be moderated like anyone else, irrespective of whether anyone else shared his opinion. While the term 'vile' is probably misplaced,
    I know it wasn't a personal comment per ce, but it's clear he's talking about me and thinks I'm 'vile'.

    (Original post by Vienna)
    his opinion appears to be one of logic: you cannot discard or ignore parts of the Quran, supposedly the word of god, and call yourself a muslim.
    Where do I disregard the Qu'ran? It's said in the Qu'ran that Allah misleads those who mislead themselves, and that we should use the minds and free will given to us, people reading the Qu'ran in a spirit of hatred will find whatever they choose to find.
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    Where do I disregard the Qu'ran? It's said in the Qu'ran that Allah misleads those who mislead themselves, and that we should use the minds and free will given to us, people reading the Qu'ran in a spirit of hatred will find whatever they choose to find.
    oh come on, you cant apply mysticism and 'you shall find whatever you came to seek' type philosophy to parts of the text that EXPLICITLY state that is is commendable to do rather naughty things to other people.
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    How can respect be possible if one participant in the marriage can abuse the other with no consequences?
    Because the abuse is not arbitrary. There is mutual respect that the man is better able to lead the family and thus the wife, while she has many valuable attributes, must be obedient to the male. While there is nothing to suggest the male can beat the wife for amusment or without reason, the Quran makes explicit the legitimacy of reprimanding ones wife, including physically, if she disobeys the male or shows a lack of respect for her position relative to the male.

    The action mentioned is a tap that doesn't laeve a bruise, it's more psychological than physical
    A tap? A tap on the shoulder? A push? A slap? Where does the Quran offer such distinctions?

    What advice would you give a friend if she confided in you that her partner had physically reprimanded her and while not hurt, she felt physically and psychologically threatened?

    As is said later in the surah, if the woman recieves any ill-treatment amounting to lack of respect for her person, she is within her rights to go to the courts for a divorce or bring family members in to counsel them.
    This is a non-argument, since the premise for legal action is that a certain amount of violence is acceptable in reprimanding a disobediant wife.
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    (Original post by Google)
    you can not compare hitting with a small branch in size of a pencill with no hurting to rape

    try to be fair
    You missed the point. You tried to render beating your wife as acceptable because you didnt hurt her that much and it was in her own interests. ie it was deserved. Rape is no less horrific because the rapist went gentle with the victim and he thought she probably deserved it.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    You missed the point. You tried to render beating your wife as acceptable because you didnt hurt her that much and it was in her own interests. ie it was deserved. Rape is no less horrific because the rapist went gentle with the victim and he thought she probably deserved it.

    yes, I missed the point

    but what I was trying to say this punishment is not bad as you may imagine
    it is bad because its a punishment
    and I think its not worse than kid punishments I mentioned before
    when you punish a kid you do not hurt him, or just to punish him
    you just want to make him know that he made a mistake
    its the purpose of punishment
Updated: August 27, 2005
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