[Vienna]

(Original post by Zuber)
Vienna i have already conceded the point that i believe that there are better and less controversial ways to get this message across. so please read all posts first, thanks.

So does Islam allow a husband to strike a woman if he feels that she has become disobedient, despite his warnings?

[Vienna]

(Original post by Zuber)
Vienna, in the passage you mention:
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

the fact that it has been translated means that it has lost some of its meaning. maybe originally a word similar to beat (with a diff meaning) was present in ancient arabic. i'm sorry but i dont believe that this entire argument should rest solely on this one point (although an entire valid point).

No, youre correct, this began as a single example that has narrowed because of the persistant rejection that it even existed.

[Zuber]

(Original post by Vienna)
No, youre correct, this began as a single example that has narrowed because of the persistant rejection that it even existed.

thank you vienna.
okay, lets discuss the other reasons why people believe that Islam oppresses women. i will try and give my viewpoint, although it may not always be islamic!
anyone willing to offer a diff reason?

[Mughal]

Women and veiling.

http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Religion_...lam/ref-40.htm


http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Religion_Reformers_in_Islam/


http://www.the-brights.net/forums/in...opic=1577&st=0

[Google]

what I meant in my last post is

in any given company
employees are not in the same degree
I mean your boss is higher than you
if you made a mistake he would punish you
but if he made a mistake you can not punish him
but you can talk to a higher authority
or even take a legal action
yet, you can not call this inequality
and it does not work making all employees with the same (privileges)
a ship needs one captain
and so on, in every system
do you understand what I am trying to say
the same applys in a family

may be I do not express myself clearly
but I am trying my best
(and this is one of the reasons I am in this forum,
again I mean to improve myself)

[Zuber]

(Original post by Mughal)
Women and veiling.

http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Religion_...lam/ref-40.htm


http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Religion_Reformers_in_Islam/


http://www.the-brights.net/forums/in...opic=1577&st=0

Mughal could you explain yourself a bit please? those links make good reading, but unfortunately are EXTREMELY long! and as i do have my M2 exam tomorrow, i doubt i'd have time to read all of it.
could you please summarise your points?
from your first sentence i would gather that you believe that women are oppressed by Islam because of the veils? i will not respond until i am clear about what you are trying to say (ie i dont want to respond to something that you may not even be saying!)

[Manatee]

(Original post by Google)
what I meant in my last post is

in any given company
employees are not in the same degree
I mean your boss is higher than you
if you made a mistake he would punish you
but if he made a mistake you can not punish him
but you can talk to a higher authority
or even take a legal action
yet, you can not call this inequality
and it does not work making all employees with the same (privileges)
a ship needs one captain
and so on, in every system
do you understand what I am trying to say
the same applys in a family

may be I do not express myself clearly
but I am trying my best
(and this is one of the reasons I am in this forum,
again I mean to improve myself)

Of course hierarchy exists in the workplace - but one's place in that hierarchy is generally earned and is based on qualifications/experience/merit. No-one gets to be captain of a ship (to use your example) without showing they have the necessary skills and merit the powers and privileges which that position entails. What you are saying, however, is that men are naturally in a superior position, having done nothing more to deserve that superiority than be born with a penis.

Hardly the same thing, I think.

[Google]

we call one for his\her fathers name\last name
why we did not call him\her for mothers name\last name
women oppression?
when a woman get married, she adopt her husbands name\last name
did you ever heard about a man who adobted his wifes last name
women oppression?
does not this mean men has a "superior position"?

[Scheherazade]

(Original post by Vienna)
The Quran specifically refers to beating. Now I accept that there will be some room for intepretation on just how physical that is, but please dont insult my intelligence by equating physical violence to divorce, as a way of trying to reconcile your defence of Islam with a clear acceptance of Western, progressive values. You cant believe a word of god if youre determined to dress it up in a nice pretty 21st century box.

Vienna, I'm not insulting your intelligence at all, you seem like an intelligent, well spoken woman. What I said was I don't really know what it means, the translation is confusing here and you can make any number of interpretations.

Why does everyone keep saying that? I don't accept all 'progressive' western values I believe what I choose to believe. I do believe the Qu'ran as the word of God, but I'm not willing to blindly follow what a group of men decide is the 'right' interpretation when some of them have very clearly shown themselves to be predjudiced. Once you've accepted a faith(as I have) that takes precedence over everything else, and I don't really care if my values are accepted by anyone else. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think Islam is oppressive to women.

In case my statements here are too convoluted, what I'm saying is I don't know. I guess I'll have to study and try to do the best I can to improve my knowledge. The struggle never ends.

Peace.

[zaaks786]

(Original post by Google)
we call one for his\her fathers name\last name
why we did not call him\her for mothers name\last name
women oppression?
when a woman get married, she adopt her husbands name\last name
did you ever heard about a man who adobted his wifes last name
women oppression?
does not this mean men has a "superior position"?

Can i jus add something....it is a western concept to accept ur husbands name...and so now has just become widely used by everyone(fair enuff, nothing wrong with tht) but in islam a woman can keep her own name wen she gets married and is under no objection to take her husbands....

[Scheherazade]

All the women in my family keep their maiden names.

[zaaks786]

(Original post by ayaan)
All the women in my family keep their maiden names.

a perfect example

See now we dnt look at western society and say 'oh the lady takes her husbands name....they must be soooo oppressed' so why do others look at islam and go...'oh she wears a hijab or does this etc....they must oppress women in islam' ...

[Google]

(Original post by zaaks786)
a perfect example

See now we dnt look at western society and say 'oh the lady takes her husbands name....they must be soooo oppressed' so why do others look at islam and go...'oh she wears a hijab or does this etc....they must oppress women in islam' ...

this is what I was trying to say

[LOST]

(Original post by zaaks786)
a perfect example

See now we dnt look at western society and say 'oh the lady takes her husbands name....they must be soooo oppressed' so why do others look at islam and go...'oh she wears a hijab or does this etc....they must oppress women in islam' ...

Because the idea isn't a human-manifest?

[Manatee]

(Original post by Google)
we call one for his\her fathers name\last name
why we did not call him\her for mothers name\last name
women oppression?

I'm sure that others will correct me if I've got this wrong, but as far as I know, Spanish children are given two names, one from the father and one from the mother. I also understand that when Spanish women marry, they tend to keep their two family names intact and do not adopt the husband's name.

(Original post by Google)
when a woman get married, she adopt her husbands name\last name

That's the general convention, though the adoption of the husband's name is not automatic - the woman must make the conscious decision to do so. Personally, if I ever get married, I have no intention of changing my name; I really don't see why a woman should have to. There is an increasing number of women who choose to keep their maiden name, whether for professional or other reasons.

(Original post by Google)
did you ever heard about a man who adobted his wifes last name
women oppression?

Actually, I have, on several occasions, and I have a lot of respect for men who are open-minded enough to take this (still unusual) step. It does happen and I suspect that it will only become more common.

(Original post by Google)
does not this mean men has a "superior position"?

No, it does not. What this shows, if anything, is that, historically speaking, men have been seen as the head of the family with the women deriving their status from their relationship with those men. However, the fact that this has historically been the case, and that the conventions we use in respect of names reflect this, does not mean that men are, by their very nature, superior - all it means is that they have been in control and have imposed certain rules. The position of women in the West has undergone tremendous changes in the last 100 years or so, and although most women still follow the naming conventions, they are now able to establish their own position in society independently of their father's/husband's.

If you are going to prove male superiority, you are going to have do a lot better than this, I'm afraid.

[Weejimmie]

(Original post by ayaan)
I do believe the Qu'ran as the word of God, but I'm not willing to blindly follow what a group of men decide is the 'right' interpretation when some of them have very clearly shown themselves to be predjudiced. Once you've accepted a faith(as I have) that takes precedence over everything else, and I don't really care if my values are accepted by anyone else. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think Islam is oppressive to women.

Sorry, but again, why have you accepted a faith when you don't actually have any reason to think the faith teaches what you want it to teach and there isn't any evidence for the most basic tenets of that faith in the first place?

[Scheherazade]

Well, I'm going to be honest when it comes to ignorance on points of theology.

And I have faith. Hasn't this already been covered? If you believe in a religion you have faith, if you have faith, you follow it's teachings, you don't just say 'i could have made better rules' and not follow it.

I don't think I make an awful lot of sense today, but I just had three hours of chemistry exams so bear with me.

[Weejimmie]

Yes, but presumably you have faith without needing to know anything about the religion. You- as a muslim from birth- begin by having faith without actually knowing what you have faith in- you were a muslim before you knew anything of what muslims are meant to believe. Now that you know what muslims are meant to believe you don't think it is true yet you still remain a muslim. It isn't just a matter of better rules, but rules that you think are wrong, yet- even though all the experts and scholars think those are the rules- you seem to think they can't be.
well, I'm recovering from number theory. It's more important for you to make sense in your exams than here, though, for purely selfish reasons, I'd prefer it the other way round.

[Scheherazade]

(Original post by Weejimmie)
Yes, but presumably you have faith without needing to know anything about the religion. You- as a muslim from birth- begin by having faith without actually knowing what you have faith in- you were a muslim before you knew anything of what muslims are meant to believe.

Our view would be that everyone is- that's why we don't have christenings.

(Original post by Weejimmie)
Now that you know what muslims are meant to believe you don't think it is true yet you still remain a muslim. It isn't just a matter of better rules, but rules that you think are wrong, yet- even though all the experts and scholars think those are the rules- you seem to think they can't be.

I understand what you mean, but I don't thinkl that's what I meant, I'll try to explain myself better:

And there are scholars who don't. I do find that they are- in my opinion- wrong in a lot of of respects in what I know off their interpretations. So, my point was if I believed something was in the Qu'ran, then I would follow it. The difference between me now and when I was younger would be that I don't rely on anyone else to define what my faith is.

(Original post by Weejimmie)
well, I'm recovering from number theory.

What is your degree in by the way? It's strange having debates with people and not knowing fairly basic things about them.(that was just a pointless reflection- you don't have to answer)

(Original post by Weejimmie)
It's more important for you to make sense in your exams than here, though, for purely selfish reasons, I'd prefer it the other way round.

I don't think I made a lot of sense at all today- or in general I've been told.

[Mughal]

India bans the books that throw some light on islam and muslims in order to keep peace.

http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ayodhya/ch12.htm