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'Does Islam oppress women?'

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    (Original post by The Basilisk)
    Also, Islam is against wife-beating. Wife beating is totally different, where the woman is abused and has bruises and maybe cuts. The prophet was totally against corporal punishment of any kind.
    The Qur'an is very clear on this issue. Almighty Allah says: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things." (An-Nisa': 34-35)


    It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one's own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situation with care and wisdom. The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.
    Basilisk, you have absolutely no clue.

    On one side you have a sura of the Quran, which says "beat your wife" (lightly is in brackets because it's an addition by the translator).

    On the other side, you have some (weak) ahadith, which seem an operation of damage limitation, who speak of avoiding the face, leaving no mark, using toothbrushes etc.

    The Sura from the Quran is of course the word of allah, while the ahadith are the words of men.

    Secondly, even if we accept the validity of those limitations, why should women accept the symbolic humiliation of physical punishment? and where can you find these special wife-bashing toothbrushes?
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    (Original post by melbourne)
    Not sure about the "BNP" part kiddo, but you got the rest right! Change your views to Conservatism (work for what you want) and you're spot on.
    Conservatism also dictates that everyone should have a stong family unit and the woman is central to the role at home. In fact, Thatcher blamed single parents for the rise in violent crime! That is conservatism, assuming you are conservative and know anything about your own ideology.
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    (Original post by The Basilisk)
    I agree, as narrow minded as you are.
    I am afraid that taking the side of the wife-bashers is not a sign of openness of mind
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    Conservatism also dictates that everyone should have a stong family unit and the woman is central to the role at home.
    Conservatism believes in a strong family, it doesnt suggest that women should be obedient to men, or thats its acceptable to be beaten. I would find it concerning if you couldnt observe the difference.
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    All mainstream religions oppress both sexes.

    Andrew
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    Okay, it seems this whole argument is now simply pivoting in one sentence of the entire Quran. And to be honest, who knows what this trully means? much of the quran has been changed due to the changing of the arabic language which means that certain interpretations may have been made.
    And lets even say that it was meant to say that. Its one sentence out of an entire book. Apart from this, everything in the Quran shows that Islam clearly doesnt oppress woman.
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    (Original post by The Basilisk)
    Also, Islam is against wife-beating. Wife beating is totally different, where the woman is abused and has bruises and maybe cuts.
    Oh, I see - so as long as the wife does not sport any visible marks, beating her is acceptable (in "desperate situations" only, of course - perhaps her paranoid husband has spotted her talking to another man). Yep, that's definitely different from wife-beating, which is of course completely unacceptable.

    :rolleyes:

    What planet does your twisted lack of logic hail from, Basilisk?
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    (Original post by Zuber)
    Apart from this, everything in the Quran shows that Islam clearly doesnt oppress woman.
    Wrong. There is a consistent pattern of discrimination against women in the Quran: rules for inheritance, testifying in court, polygamy. Women are even discriminated in Paradise: the male martyr gets 72 virgins, the female only the standard treatment.
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    (Original post by giordano)
    Wrong. There is a consistent pattern of discrimination against women in the Quran: rules for inheritance, testifying in court, polygamy. Women are even discriminated in Paradise: the male martyr gets 72 virgins, the female only the standard treatment. Conversely, hell is populated mostly by women.
    the rules of inheritance were non-existant before islam!!! so therefore, islam has bettered the rules of inheritance in favour of woman.
    About testifying in court - i honestly have no idea about what Islam says on this - perhaps you could tell me?
    Polygamy - i am guessing that you are referring to the fact that men can get married to more than one woman at one time? well, for one thing it was the culture of the time. That is still no excuse though. BUTTT if you look at the wording in the quran, you will see that men aren't actually allowed to get married to more than one woman. it says that men can get married to +1 ONLY if they treat each of them completely equally and love them equally, which is ultimately impossible. However i believe it is still state in the quran for one reason - getting married to a woman was a way of protecting her. In ancient Mecca, some woman were being forced to go into prostitution. This was also part of the reason why the Hijab was introduced.
    Finally, about the 72 virgins bit. Everyone knows that men are more sex driven than woman, so it seems quite logical to intice men with this! after all, it is a metaphor. i dont believe it to be literal at all. ANOTHER very important point is that there would be no such thing as a female martyr. At the time of the start of Islam, women didnt play important parts in the world politically or militarily. and thats in ALL of the world. therefore a woman couldnt be a martyr!!! i may be wrong, and i welcome anyone to come up with a counter-example, telling me of ONE (ONLY ONE!) female martyr from approximately that period of time.
    Again, i am unsure about the last statement you made - could you please clarify what you mean by saying hell is largely populated by women? i dont quite know much on this topic!
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Conservatism believes in a strong family, it doesnt suggest that women should be obedient to men, or thats its acceptable to be beaten. I would find it concerning if you couldnt observe the difference.
    I was merely pointing out to melbourne that Islam isn't the only "ideology" who considers women as "inferior" (subject to debate).
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    Interesting debate. Particularly fascinating is the idea that corporal punishment with a toothbrush is part of Allah's divine plan for us humans - surely as an omnipotent and omniscient being he could have done better than that? Does he specify a particular brand? I find that when my wife is disobedient the Colgate toothbrush usually gives a nice twang and she tends not to re-offend too quickly. If she ever gets seriously out of hand I wouldn't rule out using the electric toothbrush for extra zip when administering a clip about the head. [NB. I am 19 and unmarried and am merely making a point]. Seriously though, back in the days the Qu'ran was written did toothbrushes even exist? And that extra word "lightly" was it even there? I would say the answer to both of these are no. Which means, I am sure, that thanks to the merciful word of Allah plenty of women were heavily beaten with sticks or whatever else the husband could find. Why? Suspicion on the part of the husband. Wonderful.

    For all the cleverly manipulated nuances which are added or fiddled by modern editors of the Qu'ran, there is in my mind something sinister about the way women are treated in Islamic states. You need only look at pictures like this or this to see that there is a problem. I would be interested to hear a Muslim's view on the burqa and whether or not they deem it acceptable that in Afghanistan it was a punishable offence (and hell do they know how to punish women!) not to wear the burqa.

    However, it's important to remember that (to stick with the given example) the burqa is an interpretation of the hijab dress code; it is the interpretation of a religious text. I think that is perhaps at the crux of the debate. A religion will be judged by the way it is put into practice and the way Islam is put into practice is often oppressive towards women. It is all very well saying that a religion is peace-loving, but this doesn't wash if the laws of the very same religion are used to condem a woman to death by stoning for having sex (or for having being raped!). It is also all very well to say that women are not oppressed but when I see women on the television covered from head to toe with a grille over their face I cannot accept that women are not oppressed. This is especially true when the laws saying they must dress this way are coming from unelected men who have total control over the running of a country and its laws.

    So to answer: Yes, unfortunately Islam seems extremely prone to being interpreted in a manner which is oppressive and abusive towards women.
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    (Original post by darth_vader05)
    i've also had to study this subject and it seems to me that people stating that islam suprreses woman is a view taken on by those who look at the minority. in my study i researched that women being opressed was more of a cultural thing. the first generation of muslims in the uk were very protective of their women that is why some people thought it was opression.

    i looked at countries like saudi arabia during my research, and i found that men and women have an equal footing. i have a muslim friend and its interesting what the quran says on women. i think theres this whole section where equality of men and women is stated.

    i think that islam doesnt opress women but some muslims seem to opress women, and this stems from their cultural beliefs.

    (i dont know whether what i rote makes sense !)
    Well from reading through the English translation of the Qur'an. I seem to get a very different idea to 'equality'.
    There appears to be a few differences between what Islam says and what the Qur'an says. Is this because Muslims recognise it as being unjust? Surely if the Qur'an is the perfect word of Allah-it would be perfect and timeless and I am led to believe it is the sole source of authority as everything else is falliable.
    What about pre-marital, does the girl honestly get a choice in who she marries?
    Do the women have the freedom to do what they want to their bodies ie piercings and make-up?
    Is it shameful for a Muslim woman to live an unmarried life?
    Must a married Muslim women have kids?
    Finally, what does Islam actually say about the role of women-why did Allah create them?
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    (Original post by ruthiepooos)
    What about pre-marital, does the girl honestly get a choice in who she marries?
    yes, a girl should be asked first, and a judge at the court would not let a girl be married without her approval
    Do the women have the freedom to do what they want to their bodies ie piercings and make-up?
    yes, they encouraged to, but without physical body changing, and men are not allowed to physically change thier bodies as well
    Is it shameful for a Muslim woman to live an unmarried life?
    of course not, this is all about tratidions only
    Must a married Muslim women have kids?
    yes, couples must have kids, but this does not mean they should just have kids, they should raise them very carefully, from nutural breastfeeding to playing with them, educating them ...
    Finally, what does Islam actually say about the role of women-why did Allah create them?
    the same reason Allah created men.
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    in this occasion
    I want to say a word about why Muslim women cover their head and body
    I think of it like that
    when you have a valuable thing you take special care of it
    at a museum, you find certain paintings being showed for audience rarely
    in the same way
    Islam looks for a woman as a very valuable jewelery

    I hope you get what I mean
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    (Original post by Google)
    in this occasion
    I want to say a word about why Muslim women cover their head and body
    I think of it like that
    when you have a valuable thing you take special care of it
    at a museum, you find certain paintings being showed for audience rarely
    in the same way
    Islam looks for a woman as a very valuable jewelery

    I hope you get what I mean
    Rubbish! Have you seen the pictures I put links to in my previous post? Please do not liken this to an exhibit in a museum. It's sick and there can be no justification whatsoever. There is a difference between dressing modestly and being coerced into wearing something like that. Women in the West may dress conservatively, but things like the burqa are terrible. Do you condone women being made to wear them?
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    (Original post by Zuber)
    the rules of inheritance were non-existant before islam!!! so therefore, islam has bettered the rules of inheritance in favour of woman.
    This is untrue.All ancient civilisations had rules on inheritance. Some more favourable to women, other less so. But that is not the point; the point is the present situation: in Muslim countries, sharia law gives women half the share of a man, whereas in most non-Muslim countries a woman receives the same share as a man.
    (Original post by Zuber)
    About testifying in court - i honestly have no idea about what Islam says on this - perhaps you could tell me?
    Basically, same thing here. A testimony by a woman is worth half of a man's one.
    (Original post by Zuber)
    Polygamy - i am guessing that you are referring to the fact that men can get married to more than one woman at one time? well, for one thing it was the culture of the time. That is still no excuse though. BUTTT if you look at the wording in the quran, you will see that men aren't actually allowed to get married to more than one woman. it says that men can get married to +1 ONLY if they treat each of them completely equally and love them equally, which is ultimately impossible. However i believe it is still state in the quran for one reason - getting married to a woman was a way of protecting her. In ancient Mecca, some woman were being forced to go into prostitution. This was also part of the reason why the Hijab was introduced.
    Sorry, but these sound like embarrassed excuses. You know yourself that these convoluted exercises in damage limitation don't hold water
    (Original post by Zuber)
    Finally, about the 72 virgins bit. Everyone knows that men are more sex driven than woman,
    I would put it differently: most societies repress feminine sexuality much stronger than male one
    (Original post by Zuber)
    so it seems quite logical to intice men with this! after all, it is a metaphor. i dont believe it to be literal at all. ANOTHER very important point is that there would be no such thing as a female martyr. At the time of the start of Islam, women didnt play important parts in the world politically or militarily. and thats in ALL of the world. therefore a woman couldnt be a martyr!!! i may be wrong, and i welcome anyone to come up with a counter-example, telling me of ONE (ONLY ONE!) female martyr from approximately that period of time.
    Well, just take up a calendar. Early Christianity has enough women martyrs to celebrate a couple of them any calendar day you may look at.
    (Original post by Zuber)
    Again, i am unsure about the last statement you made - could you please clarify what you mean by saying hell is largely populated by women? i dont quite know much on this topic!
    This is from a hadith : Mohammed visited hell, and he saw that it was mainly populated by women. If you want, I can find the references for it
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    OK, here goes: Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 464:

    Narrated 'Imran bin Husain: The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women."
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    (Original post by giordano)
    This is untrue.All ancient civilisations had rules on inheritance. Some more favourable to women, other less so. But that is not the point; the point is the present situation: in Muslim countries, sharia law gives women half the share of a man, whereas in most non-Muslim countries a woman receives the same share as a man.
    Basically, same thing here. A testimony by a woman is worth half of a man's one.
    Sorry, but these sound like embarrassed excuses. You know yourself that these convoluted exercises in damage limitation don't hold water
    I would put it differently: most societies repress feminine sexuality much stronger than male one Well, just take up a calendar. Early Christianity has enough women martyrs to celebrate a couple of them any calendar day you may look at.
    This is from a hadith : Mohammed visited hell, and he saw that it was mainly populated by women. If you want, I can find the references for it
    Okay for the first 2 points - inheritance and testimonies - you are comparing the muslim law (that dates back for about 1400 yeras) to present law. At the time of the Prophet i believe that women inherited nothing at all, and probably weren't allow to testify in court. It would have been hard to introduce law that gave women COMPLETE equal rights - i mean this is introducing laws into a society where women were treated like dirt. I do believe these laws were very profitable for women in THAT period of time. Today the laws are different, and hence a different situation. As i have said before (not sure on this thread!) change is ongoing and we must evolve with it.

    Sorry, but these sound like embarrassed excuses. You know yourself that these convoluted exercises in damage limitation don't hold water
    lol. they aren't excuses. if you look at the time of the prophet, i believe he contracted several marriages to help women. It was also the culture of the time, and as stated before, the quran couldnt have 100% gone against the culture or else it would never have been accepted!!! I mean, imagine if a "new" messenger went to ireland with a holy book saying that alcohol is prohibited (to take a stereotype!). He would get shot down in a second.

    Oh and yes, i would quite like some references on the hell/women thing. I didnt know anything about this.
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    (Original post by englishstudent)
    Rubbish! Have you seen the pictures I put links to in my previous post? Please do not liken this to an exhibit in a museum. It's sick and there can be no justification whatsoever. There is a difference between dressing modestly and being coerced into wearing something like that. Women in the West may dress conservatively, but things like the burqa are terrible. Do you condone women being made to wear them?
    first
    you can not say "rubbish" about what others say
    and about burqa, its not Islamic, its a tradition
    and why its ok for nuns to cover their heads and bodies
    but its not ok for Muslim women
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    (Original post by giordano)
    OK, here goes: Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 464:

    Narrated 'Imran bin Husain: The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women."
    I see. well, for one thing, this isnt the best of sources - i.e. might have got it wrong etc. i dont know.
    Also as i have said before, all descriptions of heaven and hell are metaphors. i.e. if you look at the paradise one, i would interpret that as being people who OVERCOME hardships and temptations to reach heaven. Not sure how i would interpret the "hell" one - maybe adultery...?
Updated: August 27, 2005
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