Should we use the 'Death Penalty' for serious crimes?
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adamrules247
Those figures were quoted from one the death penalty was around in the 50s - 60s. I admit that the time might be slightly longer now due to the greater access to justice. But probably no more than twice or tripple the time. It would never get as long as the US system which has thrown the front doors, back doors and the cat flap open to appeals.
Learnt have we??
Learnt have we??
So how many appeals would you let them have? Just the one? And if it turned out that he was wrongly executed would you then still think it a good idea when the state has to hand over millions to the victims family?
Reue
Sigh, complete uninformed rubbish.
1. It is very expensive to sentance someone to death. Take a look at comparable costs over in america and you will see it is often just as, if not more expensive then keeping them in prison without appeal.
1. It is very expensive to sentance someone to death. Take a look at comparable costs over in america and you will see it is often just as, if not more expensive then keeping them in prison without appeal.
Isn't that because so many defence soliciters have their noses in the trough and get paid silly amounts to represent a defendent making an appeal.
How much does it cost to keep a "lifer" in jail?
Each year it's around £40,000 in the UK, plus around £120,000 for each new prison place to start with[source]
So for lets say 50 years for a life sentence, that's well over 2 million pounds!
(Just playing devils advocate, I don't think I agree with the death penalty or not.)
regards
For me the answer is a simple no. The legal system and humans are far too corrupt.
Aeolus
This is pretty much true. In my view the role of the state is only to protect the individual rights of it's citizens. But im still in two minds as to if we even need a state for that.
Aeolus, this is really interesting, as are the quotes in your sig....What would you class yourself as politically wise, out of interest??
No.
'It's cheaper'. Incorrect, in America it costs more to execute someone than it does to imprison them for life.
'It's a deterrent'. Incorrect, America have higher murder rates than countries which don't have the death penalty.
'It's fair'. An eye for an eye makes the world blind.
Plus the fact innocent people can be wrongly convicted and then killed.
'It's cheaper'. Incorrect, in America it costs more to execute someone than it does to imprison them for life.
'It's a deterrent'. Incorrect, America have higher murder rates than countries which don't have the death penalty.
'It's fair'. An eye for an eye makes the world blind.
Plus the fact innocent people can be wrongly convicted and then killed.
lordbonney
So how many appeals would you let them have? Just the one? And if it turned out that he was wrongly executed would you then still think it a good idea when the state has to hand over millions to the victims family?
If you read my previous post you would read I am up for keeping the old system.
Plus people must be convicted "beyond reasonable doubt".
Plus in our age of forensics it is becoming extremely difficult to get it wrong.
adamrules247
If you read my previous post you would read I am up for keeping the old system.
Plus people must be convicted "beyond reasonable doubt".
Plus in our age of forensics it is becoming extremely difficult to get it wrong.
Plus people must be convicted "beyond reasonable doubt".
Plus in our age of forensics it is becoming extremely difficult to get it wrong.
So you'd just allow the one standard trial and appeal, and then kill them? Even though it costs so much more, and doesnt act as a deterrent?
And even though its highly unlikely to be wrong its still possible, which would result in an innocent man being put to death.
MaceyThe
Isn't that because so many defence soliciters have their noses in the trough and get paid silly amounts to represent a defendent making an appeal.
How much does it cost to keep a "lifer" in jail?
Each year it's around £40,000 in the UK, plus around £120,000 for each new prison place to start with[source]
So for lets say 50 years for a life sentence, that's well over 2 million pounds!
(Just playing devils advocate, I don't think I agree with the death penalty or not.)
regards
How much does it cost to keep a "lifer" in jail?
Each year it's around £40,000 in the UK, plus around £120,000 for each new prison place to start with[source]
So for lets say 50 years for a life sentence, that's well over 2 million pounds!
(Just playing devils advocate, I don't think I agree with the death penalty or not.)
regards
Obviously we can only really compare with America as it has a similar legal system, appeals processes and a death penalty in some states. To quote just a few sources:
The Death Penalty Cost More than Life in Prison:
Prosecuting a death penalty case is extremely expensive for a state and drains money that could be used for education and social programs. Capital punishment costs more than sentencing a prisoner to life without parole. The most comprehensive death penalty study in the country found that the death penalty cost North Carolina $2.16 million more per execution over the costs of sentencing murderers to life imprisonment. The majority of these costs occur at the trial level.[4] In its review of death penalty expenses, the State of Kansas concluded that capital cases are 70 percent more expensive than comparable non-death penalty cases, including the costs of incarceration
And we also need to factor in the costs of appeals at an EU level as well.
While all of this is just comparing to the U.S., obviously is could well be cheaper here in the UK.. however the fact remains that the death penalty is not the 'cheap option' so many uninformed people on here will try telling you.
lordbonney
So you'd just allow the one standard trial and appeal, and then kill them? Even though it costs so much more, and doesnt act as a deterrent?
And even though its highly unlikely to be wrong its still possible, which would result in an innocent man being put to death.
And even though its highly unlikely to be wrong its still possible, which would result in an innocent man being put to death.
Firstly we have already established in the UK it would make a saving due to the less open system of justice we have in the UK. I would allow the normal system of appeal.
Interestingly in coutries like Singapour (or however it's spelt) it has worked as a deterrent. Also since the death penalty was abolished in this country the number of murders and violent crime has increased anually.
Hope that helps. Bar the spelling mistakes. lol.
nolongerhearthemusic
Well, that's horrible.
One could say that raping a stranger, unprovoked, is also horrible, which is the example she gave.
adamrules247
Firstly we have already established in the UK it would make a saving due to the less open system of justice we have in the UK. I would allow the normal system of appeal.
Interestingly in coutries like Singapour (or however it's spelt) it has worked as a deterrent. Also since the death penalty was abolished in this country the number of murders and violent crime has increased anually.
Hope that helps. Bar the spelling mistakes. lol.
Interestingly in coutries like Singapour (or however it's spelt) it has worked as a deterrent. Also since the death penalty was abolished in this country the number of murders and violent crime has increased anually.
Hope that helps. Bar the spelling mistakes. lol.
So you'd allow the same amount of appeals for someone whose being jailed for robbery as for someone whose being killed for murder? Thats pretty absurd!
EDIT - I also forgot that we're a member of the EU, meaning that unless we pulled out they'd be allowed to appeal all the way up to Europe.
Also you cant really compare us to Singapore, a country where chewing gum is illegal! Their society and culture are very different. Do you have any proof that it has acted as a deterrent? Figures showing the rates before and after the death penalty was introduced?
It makes much more sense to use the American figures as they are much more like us socially and culturally. In their case it clearly isnt a deterrent (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-1996-2008, only 12 years, but still useful)
If the numbers of violent crime and murder have gone up every year since the death penalty was abolished here (since 1965 to all extents and purposes) that implies that something else has changed. You cant say that something that was abolished in 1965 is still having ramifications. If it was acting as a deterrent you would have expected a 'levelling off' after a decade or so, as the effect from the new law settled down, not for it to still be rising 40 years later. Other things can be blamed for the subsequent rise.
lordbonney
So you'd allow the same amount of appeals for someone whose being jailed for robbery as for someone whose being killed for murder? Thats pretty absurd!
EDIT - I also forgot that we're a member of the EU, meaning that unless we pulled out they'd be allowed to appeal all the way up to Europe.
Also you cant really compare us to Singapore, a country where chewing gum is illegal! Their society and culture are very different. Do you have any proof that it has acted as a deterrent? Figures showing the rates before and after the death penalty was introduced?
It makes much more sense to use the American figures as they are much more like us socially and culturally. In their case it clearly isnt a deterrent (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-1996-2008, only 12 years, but still useful)
If the numbers of violent crime and murder have gone up every year since the death penalty was abolished here (since 1965 to all extents and purposes) that implies that something else has changed. You cant say that something that was abolished in 1965 is still having ramifications. If it was acting as a deterrent you would have expected a 'levelling off' after a decade or so, as the effect from the new law settled down, not for it to still be rising 40 years later. Other things can be blamed for the subsequent rise.
EDIT - I also forgot that we're a member of the EU, meaning that unless we pulled out they'd be allowed to appeal all the way up to Europe.
Also you cant really compare us to Singapore, a country where chewing gum is illegal! Their society and culture are very different. Do you have any proof that it has acted as a deterrent? Figures showing the rates before and after the death penalty was introduced?
It makes much more sense to use the American figures as they are much more like us socially and culturally. In their case it clearly isnt a deterrent (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-1996-2008, only 12 years, but still useful)
If the numbers of violent crime and murder have gone up every year since the death penalty was abolished here (since 1965 to all extents and purposes) that implies that something else has changed. You cant say that something that was abolished in 1965 is still having ramifications. If it was acting as a deterrent you would have expected a 'levelling off' after a decade or so, as the effect from the new law settled down, not for it to still be rising 40 years later. Other things can be blamed for the subsequent rise.
Your first point. It's called JUSTICE, there is one appeals system with different branches.
Second point. The rates for unlawful killings in Britain have more than doubled since abolition of capital punishment in 1964 from 0.68 per 100,000 of the population to 1 .42 per 100,000. Home Office figures show around unlawful killings 300 in 1964, which rose to 565 in 1994 and 833 in 2004. The figure for homicides in 2007 was 734. There's some figures for you, there probably are other factors, but irrespective of what you say about Singapour the death penalty clearly does act as a deterent, regardless of the culture.
It's not wise to compare us to the USA, their gun laws are completely different to us. For example the principle murders in the UK are fights involving fists and feet, stabbing and cutting by glass or a broken bottle. The USA I expect has more to do with guns.
On your EU point [sarcasm]oh no!! We'll have to leave the EU[/sarcasm]
I had the privilege of seeing and meeting Sister Helen Prejean (author of Dead Man Walking) at a conference over the weekend and her words has completely changed my outlook on the death penalty. Despite being very against it in the first place, I believe more strongly about it now, she was very inspirational. She is a very understanding, forgiving and empathetic person and the world would be a better place with more people like her.
"If we believe that murder is wrong and not admissible in our society, then it has to be wrong for everyone, not just individuals but governments as well."
- Sister Helen Prejean
"If we believe that murder is wrong and not admissible in our society, then it has to be wrong for everyone, not just individuals but governments as well."
- Sister Helen Prejean
adamrules247
Your first point. It's called JUSTICE, there is one appeals system with different branches.
Which doesnt take away from my point that people only get one appeal, regardless of the crime being commited?
adamrules247
Second point. The rates for unlawful killings in Britain have more than doubled since abolition of capital punishment in 1964 from 0.68 per 100,000 of the population to 1 .42 per 100,000. Home Office figures show around unlawful killings 300 in 1964, which rose to 565 in 1994 and 833 in 2004. The figure for homicides in 2007 was 734. There's some figures for you, there probably are other factors, but irrespective of what you say about Singapour the death penalty clearly does act as a deterent, regardless of the culture.
I know the figures have gone up here, but if they've been consistently going up over decades that implies there is more to it than just that. I still havent seen any figures for Singapore (and even if I did it doesnt matter as the culture is too different, in SE Asia crimes tend not to be commited because people dont like to 'lose face' and face social punishments more than state punishments) I have plenty of figures shwoing that in America the death rate is higer in places where the death penalty is around (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-1996-2008 and http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2009/11/death-penalty-deterrent-evanescent.html)
adamrules247
It's not wise to compare us to the USA, their gun laws are completely different to us. For example the principle murders in the UK are fights involving fists and feet, stabbing and cutting by glass or a broken bottle. The USA I expect has more to do with guns.
No, you cant compare directly as I said, but its a far more accurate comparison than using Singapore.
And that kind of misses the point. If you want to kill someone, you'll find a way, regardless of gun laws. If the death penalty was a deterrent you would see low murder rates there, but you dont. And what about Switzerland? They have very high gun ownership rates, but low murder rates (I think, I cant be bothered to look them up, so I may be proved wrong here!)
[QUOTE="adamrules247"]
adamrules247
On your EU point [sarcasm]oh no!! We'll have to leave the EU[/sarcasm]
Its neither the time nor the place for this, but I'd say leaving the EU simply so we can have the death penalty is a bit extreme!
punkyrocker
One could say that raping a stranger, unprovoked, is also horrible, which is the example she gave.
"Unprovoked?"
Also I think if you didn't agree with that you'd be a psychopath, so does it really need stating?
lordbonney
Which doesnt take away from my point that people only get one appeal, regardless of the crime being commited?
I know the figures have gone up here, but if they've been consistently going up over decades that implies there is more to it than just that. I still havent seen any figures for Singapore (and even if I did it doesnt matter as the culture is too different, in SE Asia crimes tend not to be commited because people dont like to 'lose face' and face social punishments more than state punishments) I have plenty of figures shwoing that in America the death rate is higer in places where the death penalty is around (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-1996-2008 and http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2009/11/death-penalty-deterrent-evanescent.html)
No, you cant compare directly as I said, but its a far more accurate comparison than using Singapore.
And that kind of misses the point. If you want to kill someone, you'll find a way, regardless of gun laws. If the death penalty was a deterrent you would see low murder rates there, but you dont. And what about Switzerland? They have very high gun ownership rates, but low murder rates (I think, I cant be bothered to look them up, so I may be proved wrong here!)
Its neither the time nor the place for this, but I'd say leaving the EU simply so we can have the death penalty is a bit extreme!
I know the figures have gone up here, but if they've been consistently going up over decades that implies there is more to it than just that. I still havent seen any figures for Singapore (and even if I did it doesnt matter as the culture is too different, in SE Asia crimes tend not to be commited because people dont like to 'lose face' and face social punishments more than state punishments) I have plenty of figures shwoing that in America the death rate is higer in places where the death penalty is around (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-1996-2008 and http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2009/11/death-penalty-deterrent-evanescent.html)
No, you cant compare directly as I said, but its a far more accurate comparison than using Singapore.
And that kind of misses the point. If you want to kill someone, you'll find a way, regardless of gun laws. If the death penalty was a deterrent you would see low murder rates there, but you dont. And what about Switzerland? They have very high gun ownership rates, but low murder rates (I think, I cant be bothered to look them up, so I may be proved wrong here!)
Its neither the time nor the place for this, but I'd say leaving the EU simply so we can have the death penalty is a bit extreme!
Look you don't only get one appeal, it just that the courts won't usually allow you to appeal because it would be pointless.
I agree it does imply there is another factor, however I do believe the jump does imply that the abolition of the death penalty does play a part in it.
I use singapore as it is a country constantly developing, it is also a country that was part of the Empire and thus has taken some of the qualities with it.
It is different in different countries, the USA the people are far more, I can't say this, umm. Trigger happy maybe.
I have heard your swiss point in gun law debates with Americans. In Switzerland you must do 2 years of military training before you can recieve your gun, in the USA practically any nutter can get a gun.
I know the EU shouldn't be debated, you bought it up.
Golly, this debate is getting rather good isn't it.
nolongerhearthemusic
"Unprovoked?"
Also I think if you didn't agree with that you'd be a psychopath, so does it really need stating?
Also I think if you didn't agree with that you'd be a psychopath, so does it really need stating?
Yes, unprovoked.
And yes, as you seemed to be implying that she was horrible for wanting a criminal to suffer without taking into account the horrible deed done to her, and therefore the suffering caused by him.
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