How many of you celebrate the true meaning of xmas? :)

SebK

No, perhaps it's my lack of vocabulary (first language is French) or misuse of words - Christmas, the celebration in itself, is Christian...etc. But the original meaning of December 25th was the celebration of the Sun.

Please don't fall so low as to use excuses like that. You English is fantastic and I can judge that solely by speaking to you on this forum. Don't be fatuous by saying you cannot see the clear contradiction in what you're saying.

Christmas, the celebration in itself, is Christian...etc. But the original meaning of December 25th was the celebration of the Sun.

I have absolutely nothing wrong with this, but you said the meaning of Christmas was worshipping of the sun, and that's where I have my issue. Here's a direct quote from you:

the original meaning of Christmas is worshiping the Sun

There is a complete contradiction

The Chuch, however, tried to replace this pagan holiday with a Christian one. And that's why I say that originally, Christmas was a pagan holiday. (sorry if it sounds confusing, but I'm half-asleep, really.)

The original DATE that Christmas is on was a pagan holiday. Christmas itself is not a Christmas holiday. Christmas is on the date of a pagan holiday, it is not A pagan holiday.

Haha yep; well, I'm sure I can find more negative impacts of Christianity than positive ones :wink:

When I have time, I will make my argument against this.

Reply 84

hippieglitter

19

josh_a_y

So yeah, enter in the poll.

I wanna see how many people actually care about the true meaning of xmas, or is it just the thrill of opening presents, being with family, christmas dinner (not necessarily a bad thing to look forward to) that they look forward to.

Merry xmas everybody :cool:

i love the dinner and presents and stuff but i am a christian and try to attend at least one christmas themed church service, this year i went to two, go me. :p:

Reply 85

Lil Piranha

Woody.

I'm afraid I'm not buying the idea that 'Christ's Mass' is not a Christmas holiday. There may have been a pagan festival before that, and I'm perfectly happy to admit that that wasn't Christian. But Christmas is by definition a Christian event.

But you do realise, that without any of the Pagan background, Christmas would just be another church service (as would Easter in fact).

There would be no Christmas trees, no feasting, no mistletoe, no carol singers / wassailing, no gift-giving, no "12 days of Christmas", Father Christmas would be radically different, if he even existed (in Celtic Pagan beliefs, spirits come down the chimneys into the hearths). All of these have their roots in Pagan customs and beliefs.

So I think it DOES matter (unless you just simply go to church on Christmas day and leave it at that?? Or do you also partake in these relic Pagan traditions too?).

Reply 86

Fusilero

14

I celebrate the receiving and giving of gifts, chocolate and fluids.

Reply 87

Lil Piranha

But you do realise, that without any of the Pagan background, Christmas would just be another church service (as would Easter in fact).

There would be no Christmas trees, no feasting, no mistletoe, no carol singers / wassailing, no gift-giving, no "12 days of Christmas", Father Christmas would be radically different, if he even existed (in Celtic Pagan beliefs, spirits come down the chimneys into the hearths). All of these have their roots in Pagan customs and beliefs.

So I think it DOES matter (unless you just simply go to church on Christmas day and leave it at that?? Or do you also partake in these relic Pagan traditions too?).

Yeah, I'm sure to an extent some of that may be true but I don't buy it all by any means. Just because in Celtic Pagan beliefs, for example, spirits come down chimneys, it does not mean that because Father Christmas comes down chimney's and gives presents that that the link automatically means that Santa has his roots in pagan traditions. A correlation does not mean a causal link.

Reply 88

Woody.

Don't be fatuous by saying you cannot see the clear contradiction in what you're saying.

I wouldn't say contradiction, but misuse or misunderstanding of words, really.

Woody.

I have absolutely nothing wrong with this, but you said the meaning of Christmas was worshipping of the sun.

meaning of christmas ≠ original meaning of christmas
original = preceding all others in time or being as first made or performed.

Woody.

The original DATE that Christmas is on was a pagan holiday. Christmas itself is not a Christmas holiday.

Agreed, to a certain extent. Practically all the known Sun-deities were born on the 25th December; wasn't Jesus represented by the sun as well?
Read: http://www.humanreligions.info/christmas.html#Sun

Woody.

Christmas is on the date of a pagan holiday, it is not A pagan holiday.

Disagree; there's a reason why it's on the same day. Christmas was an attempt to change/replace a pagan holiday.

Woody.

A correlation does not mean a causal link.

True, but there's much more than just correlations. Most of the customs, lore, symbols, and rituals associated with "Christmas" are linked to Winter Solstice celebrations of ancient Pagan cultures.

Reply 89

SebK

I wouldn't say contradiction, but misuse or misunderstanding of words, really.

I'm struggling to believe this. How can I make it more clear? It's nothing to do with your misuse or misunderstanding of words. Re read the quote as otherwise I am just repeating myself. How can you not see the contradiction? It's right there. If it's a misuse of words please tell me what words, exactly, you are misusing.

meaning of christmas ≠ original meaning of christmas
original = preceding all others in time or being as first made or performed.

Exactly, the original meaning of Christmas is exactly that. It doesn't matter what Pagan rituals came before that because they are not the origins of CHRISTMAS. They share a RELATION to Christmas but they are not Christmas itself. The origin of the 25th is in Pagan rituals, the origin of CHRISTMAS is in Christianity. Where the rituals come from is irrelevant, they are not Christmas themselves.

Agreed, to a certain extent. Practically all the known Sun-deities were born on the 25th December; wasn't Jesus represented by the sun as well?
Read: http://www.humanreligions.info/christmas.html#Sun

That's false. Take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_deity
Further, it's hardly surprising that there are many deities linked with the sun are said to be born around the 25th due to the solstice, that makes sense. Jesus is known as the light of the world, light ≠ sun. Light has many meanings to it and, if you choose a date to use as representing someone as bringing light, it is hardly surprising to pick a day where light is very important (i.e. the solstice).

Disagree; there's a reason why it's on the same day. Christmas was an attempt to change/replace a pagan holiday.

That doesn't make it a pagan holiday.

True, but there's much more than just correlations. Most of the customs, lore, symbols, and rituals associated with "Christmas" are linked to Winter Solstice celebrations of ancient Pagan cultures.

Many rituals have many things in common. When you place two rituals on top of each other it is unsurprising to see overlap. I appreciate that it is likely that some Christmas events are due to pagan past times, but some links simply are due to them both being big events.

Either way, I'm afraid I'm going to have to retire from this debate due to work commitments, please feel free to respond to what I've written if you wish, but I doubt that I will respond to that. Thanks.

Reply 90

Woody.

I'm struggling to believe this.

Too bad, then let's just admit you're right.

Woody.

It doesn't matter what Pagan rituals came before that because they are not the origins of CHRISTMAS.

FFS, it does matter! As you said, they do share a relation, and this relation is important. Christmas is a "new name" given to Saturnalia and a change of its story to convert people. It didn't just magically appear in the calendars. So yes, the pagan rituals are important to understand not only the folklore/symbolism but also the whole "Jesus = Sun" thing.

Woody.

That's false.

No it's not; ever heard of Christo Sole (Christ the Sun)? Jesus is know as a lot of things, light and sun included. Church father Clement of Alexander calls "The Sun of Righteousness". When old relics and religious symbols (such as Human faces) are given a light backdrop of rays of light or a corolla it means they represent the sun. Google all the similarities between Horus, Dionysus, Bacchus or just watch the first part of the Zeitgeist movie. And the date was not only chosen for the solstice; it's know and proved that it was a way to divert pagans from the pagan feast honoring Mithras.

Woody.

That doesn't make it a pagan holiday.

And I never said it was. I'm saying the origins and original meaning of Christmas were pagan/worship of the sun. ORIGINAL meaning. Of course it's a "christian" holiday nowadays (moar like commercial holiday, amirite?), but I'm talking about the pagan origins of the holiday.

Woody.

but some links simply are due to them both being big events.

Come on. You can see that in so many other aspects of the Christian religion; most, if not all, of the Bible is a conglomeration from older myths and legends, especially those about Mithra. He was born on Dec 25th, his followers dragged a pine tree into their homes to celebrate, he was son of (the Sun) god, he was referred too as "the good shepherd", "the way, the truth and the light", "redeemer", "savior" and "Messiah". He was identified with both the lion and the lamb. All this about 500BC.

Woody.

Either way, I'm afraid I'm going to have to retire from this debate due to work commitments, please feel free to respond to what I've written if you wish, but I doubt that I will respond to that. Thanks.

Well it seems that you're the one trying to get away now, huh?

CONCLUSION:
- Christmas, nowadays, is a christian/commercial celebration.
BUT...
- Christmas is just a "remix" of old pagan traditions and celebrations (just like a lot of stories/myths from the Bible).
- Christmas was thus also a celebration of the Sun (originally, not anymore) - Jesus representing the Sun. (see Mithras...etc.)
- Christmas Day the day wasn't chosen randomly; the Church & Romans just replaced Saturnalia/Sol Invictus with Christian stories to convert people and replace paganism with Christianity.
- Christmas rituals and symbols are old and taken form pagan traditions.

Reply 91

sil3nt_cha0s

16

I'm not gonna lie here - I don't celebrate the true meaning of Christmas.

Reply 92

SebK

Well it seems that you're the one trying to get away now, huh?

Yes, I am terribly sorry I value my A-levels and future over an insignificant thread. Your post is riddled with falsehood that I scarcely be bothered to respond to (and just so I'm not saying that, read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice article, specifically the 'Christmas' section --> 'The birth is observed on December 25, which was the Roman winter solstice upon establishment of the Julian Calendar'). Go ahead and cite my lack of response as admit of defeat if you so wish. You have twisted the argument and brought in a number of other factors which are completely irrelevant. This started out with what the original meaning of Christmas is and I have said clearly to you how it is Christian and you cannot even bring yourself to admit the blatant contradictions in your posts, that's not debating.

CONCLUSION:
- Christmas, nowadays, is a christian/commercial celebration.
BUT...
- Christmas is just a "remix" of old pagan traditions and celebrations (just like a lot of stories/myths from the Bible).
- Christmas was thus also a celebration of the Sun (originally, not anymore) - Jesus representing the Sun. (see Mithras...etc.)
- Christmas Day the day wasn't chosen randomly; the Church & Romans just replaced Saturnalia/Sol Invictus with Christian stories to convert people and replace paganism with Christianity.
- Christmas rituals and symbols are old and taken form pagan traditions.

I agree with some of this but your stubborn nature to not admit what we were originally debating (or rather, denying it and then implying you agreed with it all along) is not debating. Some of these conclusions just illustrate how naive you're being by completely ignoring what I've said and you're just sticking to your own views without reasoning.

Reply 93

Woody.

Your post is riddled with falsehood

You'll have to prove that first.

Woody.

You have twisted the argument and brought in a number of other factors which are completely irrelevant.

On the contrary; they are relevant and linked to the topic. But maybe it's just hard for a Christian to admit that the Bible is full of recycled stories and that Christmas is much more than just a birth celebration.

Woody.

This started out with what the original meaning of Christmas.

CHRISTMAS MEANING NOWDAYS = "CHRISTIAN"
ORIGINAL MEANING OF CHRISTMAS = CELEBRATION OF THE SUN

From you're Wiki article: "The birth is observed on December 25" => WRONG
Now read this article, entirely: http://www.humanreligions.info/christmas.html

"Despite the nature-reveration, pagan festivals and sun-worship that formed the basis of the Christmas period, Christians sometimes complain that the 'original' Christian message is ignored at Christmas. Such modern Christians do not know its history. Christian Churches have themselves led long and bitter campaigns against the observance of Christmas and in various times and places banned it completely. The religious content was always very small, with most celebrations and rituals being secular. The main oustanding issue in the West is the Christian assertion that it has something to do with the Christian figure of Christ or his birthday. These elements should be disclaimed. Firstly, the paganism inherent in Christmas, such as decorating trees, is warned against in the Bible. Second, there are no Christian birthday celebrations in the Bible. Thirdly, early Christians celebrated Christ's birthday in April or May - it was only changed to match with 25th of December, a major pagan holiday, by Emperor Constantine."

Reply 94

SebK

You'll have to prove that first.

Did you even read my post? I provided a link to show you I wasn't just saying it. I didn't respond to it all because I no longer wish to debate with you.

On the contrary; they are relevant and linked to the topic. But maybe it's just hard for a Christian to admit that the Bible is full of recycled stories and that Christmas is much more than just a birth celebration.

I dare you to find my quote that says the Bible has nothing in relation to pagan rituals and 'recycled stories'. Go on, just try and find it.

CHRISTMAS MEANING NOWDAYS = "CHRISTIAN"
ORIGINAL MEANING OF CHRISTMAS = CELEBRATION OF THE SUN

You know when I said I often debate with people and get frustrated when nothing is accomplished? Yeah, that's happened again. Christ's mass. That's Jesus Christ of the CHRISTIANS. His story may have pagan routes, I never denied that. But those pagan stories were NOT called Christmas.

From you're Wiki article: "The birth is observed on December 25

Again, more evidence you haven't listened to a word I've said. I said Christmas was a celebration of Christ's BIRTH, not his birth date. I tire of this.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that a huge amount of the traditions you refer to (to the point of Christ's actual birth date) aren't even mentioned in the New Testament and are just traditions, wherever they may be from, that have been picked up and adapted.

Reply 95

Woody.

(...)

End of the debate; first of all, a Wikipedia article is not a proof that my post is "riddled with falsehood". Second of all, you said "...brought in a number of other factors which are completely irrelevant" - then if you don't mean the pagan stuff, you're probably talking about what I called the "commercial" aspect of Christmas; then yes, it may not be very relevant, but I'm allow to criticize Christmas if I want to, right? Thirdly, just because the roots weren't called "Christmas" doesn't mean they have no importance. I'll say it again: nowadays, the meaning of Christmas is the birth of Christ, at least to most Christians (you're aware that some fundies don't support its celebration, right?). BUT, the original meaning of Christmas (ORIGINAL = ORIGINS), is the celebration of the Sun. And even in modern-day theology, there are a lot of theories and studies made on the similarities of Jesus and the Sun. And thus, the true original meaning of Christmas is much more complicated/diverse than just a birth celebration.

Reply 96

SebK

End of the debate;

Now you're concluding it?

first of all, a Wikipedia article is not a proof that my post is "riddled with falsehood". Second of all, you said "...brought in a number of other factors which are completely irrelevant" - then if you don't mean the pagan stuff, you're probably talking about what I called the "commercial" aspect of Christmas; then yes, it may not be very relevant, but I'm allow to criticize Christmas if I want to, right?

I'm going to debate with you about the origins of apples. But for the heck of it, I'm going to chat about carrots. Do you see the issue?

Thirdly, just because the roots weren't called "Christmas" doesn't mean they have no importance.

I never, ever denied the importance of anything! I'm not even talking about the importance, I'm taking about Christmas being a Christian event!

(you're aware that some fundies don't support its celebration, right?).

Irrelevant!

(ORIGINAL = ORIGINS)

This really is where your English lets you down. Those two words do not mean the same thing, they are quite different.

is the celebration of the Sun.

Happy to admit this for the 25th of December, not for Christmas

And even in modern-day theology, there are a lot of theories and studies made on the similarities of Jesus and the Sun. And thus, the true original meaning of Christmas is much more complicated/diverse than just a birth celebration.

Yes, I was quite convinced by your link that concluded that, as Jesus was 'meant' to be born in a cave (Uhh, shame he wasn't) and that the sun orbits the earth in one year and, laughably, your website said Jesus' ministry lasted for a year (oddly, I remember the transubstantiation carried out as a baby to his death in his thirties-ish, 100% longer than a year, that one must automatically conclude that Jesus is undoubtedly linked to the sun. Many of his speeches and nature can be somewhat related, in which case, it's hardly surprising the chose the solstice as his day of celebrated birth.

By the way, remember when I said this?

I dare you to find my quote that says the Bible has nothing in relation to pagan rituals and 'recycled stories'. Go on, just try and find it.

You didn't find one, did you?

Reply 97

This thing is not really a debate, it's almost a fight. You seem to criticize me a lot for the way I debate (of course, I never said my debating method was perfect/flawless, I admit that mistakes were made) but I don't really see where exactly you disagree. Fine, you might have not denied that the roots had no importance or that the Bible had notihng in relation with paganism. As for the ministries; it’s not clear from the Gospels how long Jesus preached. Most experts and scholars believe that Jesus’ ministry was a single year, while a significant minority believes that it was three years, using the Gospel of John as their reference and the mention of three Passovers. Apart from that, I think our main disagreement is on the Jesus/Sun thing; but even if you were right and that Jesus had nothing to do with the Sun (which I doubt), that wouldn't make the original meaning of Christmas any different to me. (originally = with reference to the origins / and as you know, the origins of Christmas are pagan.) Just because the Romans changed the stories to match the teachings of the Church doesn't make Christmas a "new" holiday.

Reply 98

Lil Piranha

Woody.

Yeah, I'm sure to an extent some of that may be true but I don't buy it all by any means. Just because in Celtic Pagan beliefs, for example, spirits come down chimneys, it does not mean that because Father Christmas comes down chimney's and gives presents that that the link automatically means that Santa has his roots in pagan traditions. A correlation does not mean a causal link.

True, but unless there's something in the Bible that says a fat man in red cometh and giveth presents or that "thou must bring mistletoe and evergreen into thy abode" then the traditions such as Christmas trees etc have no Christian roots.

I agree with you that "Christmas" is a Christian festival, same as Yuletide is a Pagan one, but the thing is the two holidays have merged so much that they're inextricable.

Reply 99