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This is a post for muslims to post evidence for god/allah....... so lets be having it

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    I have read the first post in your miracles thread and skimmed the accompanying article - your argument appears to be: the Quran is perfectly written so it must be the word of God. Leaving aside the value judgment about the Qyarns perfections - even if it is that's no proof it's the word of God. This isn't the topic of this thread so I'll say no more about it here.
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    (Original post by OMEGARED)
    Anybody with logic can easily understand that God must exist and there is no doubt about his existence
    I didn't particularily want to debate with someone with such a closed mind such as yourself who has "no doubt of gods existance". This I have no problem with, but please do not attribute your faith to logic

    log·ic Audio pronunciation of "logic" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ljk)
    n.

    1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
    Faith is far from logical.

    faith Audio pronunciation of "faith" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
    n.
    2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
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    “OMEGARED - you seem to have sidestepped the main point in my post please respond to this part:”

    “You are saying the logical steps end with God. I am saying the logical steps end with something also "not dependent" on the chain of relient object which isn't God.

    Nowhere in your supposed proof have you justified that the thing which started the chain is or must be God.

    Thinking abstractly - God is an subset in the set of possible causes of the universe. If God was the only element in this set we could logically say God is the creator of the universe. However there may be other possibly causes lets call this subset X. In your argument you have neither made nor justified that God could be the only possible creator of the universe (i.e X being empty). Hence logically the argument fails. ”


    Nobody sidestepped anything; I already answered this with a whole paragraph. Like I said you can call this independent being(or set) Allah, the sustainer, a thing, the natural phenomenon or whatever you want. The set itself refers to the collective elements which constitute an unlimited and independent being, this thing/set is the creator and initiator of all that exists(all other sets) since it caused everything and nothing caused it. I suggest you don’t use the word ‘God’ and use ‘initiator’ instead as the former seems to be confusing you.

    Muslims believe the Quran is divine(from the initiator) and the miracle of the Quran is proof for its divinity. In the Quran the initiator talks about some of his attributes i.e. elements of the set to which he belongs.


    “I didn't particularily want to debate with someone with such a closed mind such as yourself who has "no doubt of gods existance". This I have no problem with, but please do not attribute your faith to logic”

    I clearly explained the ‘logical thinking’ behind why a Creator must exist and some of the attributes of this creator. If you disagree with my logic then you should show me the incorrectness in it. This is completely different to faith which is devoid of logical thinking and discussion. Please do not attribute peoples logic to faith without being able to refute their logic first.
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    Regarding the miracle of the Quran, in short prophets produced miracles e.g. parting the sea, bringing people back from the dead, not burning in fire etc. These actions go against natural law and cannot be performed by human beings. For these to happen an external being needs to intercede on behalf of the human to allow him to do such an action. This external being has to be able to manipulate natural law i.e. defy it and put it back in place. Mohammed(pbuh) performed many miracles although one exists today for everyone to see, the miracle of the Quran.

    The style of the Qurans literature is perfect and it is in a style unique to itself. It has a level of eloquence, beauty and expression which cannot be matched. Words cannot describe the beauty of the Qurans literature and it is something one will never experience unless they can understand Arabic. In the Quran the producer of the Quran says if you do not belive this is if from the ‘initiator’ who in the Quran calls himself Allah, then you should try and write three sentences similar to it in style.

    Indeed mans ability to meet or surpass the work of other men is part of natural law. The Quran defies this law since in the seventh century till today nobody has produced 3 sentences in the style of the Quran. If it was from man, then other men could produce 3 sentences like it, hence it is not from man. Rather it is from a being capable of manipulating the natural law pertaining to man. Furthermore all the attempts by muslim and non muslims scholars of the Arabic language to write like the Quran have proved futile. This is the clear proof for men of understanding.
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    (Original post by OMEGARED)
    I clearly explained the ‘logical thinking’ behind why a Creator must exist and some of the attributes of this creator. If you disagree with my logic then you should show me the incorrectness in it. This is completely different to faith which is devoid of logical thinking and discussion. Please do not attribute peoples logic to faith without being able to refute their logic first.
    Before we move on, can you please clarify. Do you require faith for your belief in God?
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    (Original post by kizdesai)
    Before we move on, can you please clarify. Do you require faith for your belief in God?
    i think they need their heads examined!
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    “Before we move on, can you please clarify. Do you require faith for your belief in God?”

    You are just making me repeat myself again. I believe a creator exists based on ‘logical reasoning’. Faith is devoid of logical reasoning or material evidence.

    The string of dependent objects(material evidence) which exist are all caused, this is a scientific fact. Either this string goes on forever or there was a start.
    ‘Logically’ the former does not explain how anything can come to exist in the first place since nothing dependent causes itself to exist, that’s why the objects are dependent ones. ‘Logically’ the only being which can start the chain is something which is independent. I term this being the creator/initiator, you can call it whatever you want. To ‘imagine’ this initiator is logically wrong since any image or phenomenon we’ll imagine is going to be restricted and dependent.

    If you see a problem with ‘my logic’ then highlight it and show me what is ‘logically correct’. If you can’t do that then it sounds like you’re the one who has faith in his beliefs.

    The ‘other aspects’ of the creator are beyond us, however the creator has informed us about some of his ‘other aspects’ in the Quran. The question now becomes is the Quran from the creator?

    The Quran with its miracle is clear proof that it is from the Creator. If you don’t research into this or wish to accept it you’re just being mean to yourself. Likewsie you can see Moses part the sea and still disbelive, you would only be being mean to yourself. You can tell me its ‘faith’ but for me the Quran is intellectual proof it is from the creator due to its defiance of natural law. Of course the Quran states ‘there is no compulsion in belief’ so believe what you will.

    However let the Quran be a clear warning for you and others. The creator has warned that the hell fire, the fuel of which is men and stones, awaits those people who reject his signs and disbelieve.
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    (Original post by OMEGARED)
    The string of dependent objects(material evidence) which exist are all caused, this is a scientific fact.
    Please demonstrate that this is a scientific fact.
    Either this string goes on forever or there was a start.
    ‘Logically’ the former does not explain how anything can come to exist in the first place since nothing dependent causes itself to exist, that’s why the objects are dependent ones. ‘Logically’ the only being which can start the chain is something which is independent. I term this being the creator/initiator, you can call it whatever you want. To ‘imagine’ this initiator is logically wrong since any image or phenomenon we’ll imagine is going to be restricted and dependent.
    Why should your hypothetical train start at all? Given you assumption that everything which exists must have a cause, please explain the hypothetical existence of a being without a cause at the start of your string.

    The ‘other aspects’ of the creator are beyond us, however the creator has informed us about some of his ‘other aspects’ in the Quran. The question now becomes is the Quran from the creator?
    The Quran with its miracle is clear proof that it is from the Creator. If you don’t research into this or wish to accept it you’re just being mean to yourself. Likewsie you can see Moses part the sea and still disbelive, you would only be being mean to yourself. You can tell me its ‘faith’ but for me the Quran is intellectual proof it is from the creator due to its defiance of natural law. Of course the Quran states ‘there is no compulsion in belief’ so believe what you will.
    Please demonstrate that Moses existed, let alone parted the sea, using evidence from outside the bible or the koran. When you have done that, please demonstrate that it was a miracle and not an inexplicable phenomenon. When you have done that, please demonstrate that the koran has a miracle or miracles.
    However let the Quran be a clear warning for you and others. The creator has warned that the hell fire, the fuel of which is men and stones, awaits those people who reject his signs and disbelieve.
    Please demonstrate, using evidenvce from outside the koran or bible, that this is the case.
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    You are just making me repeat myself again. I believe a creator exists based on ‘logical reasoning’. Faith is devoid of logical reasoning or material evidence.
    You're dodging my question by telling me what I already know.

    The string of dependent objects(material evidence) which exist are all caused, this is a scientific fact. Either this string goes on forever or there was a start.
    Science isn't in the business of creating facts or proofs as I was aware.

    ‘Logically’ the former does not explain how anything can come to exist in the first place since nothing dependent causes itself to exist, that’s why the objects are dependent ones. ‘Logically’ the only being which can start the chain is something which is independent. I term this being the creator/initiator, you can call it whatever you want. To ‘imagine’ this initiator is logically wrong since any image or phenomenon we’ll imagine is going to be restricted and dependent.
    If I believe in infinity does this not void your logic?

    If you see a problem with ‘my logic’ then highlight it and show me what is ‘logically correct’. If you can’t do that then it sounds like you’re the one who has faith in his beliefs.
    On the contrary, I do not have any beliefs. I am agnostic and possibly a weka atheist as I have not come across sufficient evidence to convince me thoroughly. Unlike you I do not try to impose my beliefs and belittle anyone elses beliefs by stating that mine are factually true.
    The ‘other aspects’ of the creator are beyond us, however the creator has informed us about some of his ‘other aspects’ in the Quran. The question now becomes is the Quran from the creator?
    I thought you already believed the Quran was the divine word of the creator? I don't understand how these aspects lead to this question.

    The Quran with its miracle is clear proof that it is from the Creator. If you don’t research into this or wish to accept it you’re just being mean to yourself. Likewsie you can see Moses part the sea and still disbelive, you would only be being mean to yourself. You can tell me its ‘faith’ but for me the Quran is intellectual proof it is from the creator due to its defiance of natural law. Of course the Quran states ‘there is no compulsion in belief’ so believe what you will.
    I am not being mean to myself by not accepting fallable evidence.

    However let the Quran be a clear warning for you and others. The creator has warned that the hell fire, the fuel of which is men and stones, awaits those people who reject his signs and disbelieve.
    I have had few signs to reject. What about those born into religions with no real opportunity to convert, are these subject to eternal damnation in hell also?
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    "If I believe in infinity does this not void your logic?"

    No since your infinity is based on faith and not logical reasoning. Despite me requesting you to explain your logical reasoning mulitple times you still fail to do so. Only if your logic is stronger can mine be void. Remeber either an initiator exists or it doesn't, logically you cannot have it both ways. It seems to me you're either ignorant, unable to follow anything i've said or just plain devoid of logic.

    "I have had few signs to reject. What about those born into religions with no real opportunity to convert, are these subject to eternal damnation in hell also?"

    No. Anybody who did not recieve the message of Islam will not be judged on it. However they will be judged using a differnet criteria. There are different schools of thought on what the criteria is. One school says anyone who did not know about Islam but died believing that God created everything and he alone is worthy of worship will not be damned to hell. Another says that anyone who did not come across Islam won't be judged on it but would be expected to follow the previous prophet sent to their nation etc. However if someone has come across the message and is aware of it they are expected to pursue it.


    "I thought you already believed the Quran was the divine word of the creator? I don't understand how these aspects lead to this question. I am not being mean to myself by not accepting fallable evidence."

    I am not muslim because my parents where muslim or because I was born in a certain region of the world. I am intellectually covinced it is correct so have adopted it as my viewpoint in life. I've clearly explained how the evidence for the Quran is not falliable. If you disagree with a point then raise it.

    On the contrary, I do not have any beliefs. I am agnostic and possibly a weka atheist as I have not come across sufficient evidence to convince me thoroughly. Unlike you I do not try to impose my beliefs and belittle anyone elses beliefs by stating that mine are factually true.

    Actually, seeing as you havn't understood a word i've said please do not explain your logic to me. This is starting to get a bit lengthy and i don't really want to pursue further discussion. I WON'T BE REPLYING TO ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS IN THIS POST SO IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS PLEASE PM ME. Doing so would tell me you sincerely want to pursue the discussion rather involve in ignorant chat. I have nothinh more to say, i'm out.
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    (Original post by OMEGARED)
    Actually, seeing as you havn't understood a word i've said please do not explain your logic to me. This is starting to get a bit lengthy and i don't really want to pursue further discussion. I WON'T BE REPLYING TO ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS IN THIS POST SO IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS PLEASE PM ME. Doing so would tell me you sincerely want to pursue the discussion rather involve in ignorant chat. I have nothinh more to say, i'm out.
    (Original post by OMEGARED)
    Go back and read the two links I posted. Like I say, non muslim scholars and the muslim ones agree that the Qurans style is inimitable and not comparable with any literature. I have dealt with stupid arguments such as yours in the links. Either you havn't understood what is being said or are just mocking. I'm out. You have been warned.
    (Original post by OMEGARED)
    If anybody wants to ask further questions then pm me. This way I know your looking for a sincere discussion rather then ignoranty which i see too often on these boards. Discussing in this way is not worth my time. So pm as I will not be replying to anybody here.
    So are you in or out? :stupid:
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    (Original post by englishstudent)
    So are you in or out? :stupid:
    He will come in again to say he is out.
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    He will come in again to say he is out.
    In, out, shake it all about.

    Ah he can do whatever, when he's in he's talking rubbish and when he's out he's probably learning the rubbish he spouts when he's in. :p:
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    He really wants me to explain my logic, i dont think he read the part about agnostic. I don't have any, but I am free to refute yours If I am not convined. He'll grasp this when he pops back in this thread no doubt...
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    Please demonstrate that it is a scientific fact that "the string of material objects (material existence)" are caused.. Why should your hypothetical train start at all? Given you assumption that everything which exists must have a cause, please explain the hypothetical existence of a being without a cause at the start of your string.

    Please demonstrate that Moses existed, let alone parted the sea, using evidence from outside the bible or the koran. When you have done that, please demonstrate that it was a miracle and not an inexplicable phenomenon. When you have done that, please demonstrate that the koran has a miracle or miracles.
    Please demonstrate, using evidence from outside the koran or bible, that hell fire awaits those of us who reject the signs the koran allegedly provides.
    Still waiting.
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    wow..was i gone that long?

    dang..

    it seems time is not on my side..my breaks cut short and i'm heading to moscow for my 1st med year..i'll try my best to reupdate myself here,but i'm not gone...i'll be back.. i certainly have an unfinished business with my dear sir and madam weejimmie and manatee..
    please realise my true passion in debating..i'm not here to convert anyone..
    cuz if that be the case,i believe there can be so many ways God can show atheists the proof they need...

    "Life is a Cookie."
    p.s. to those who've not seen,what are you doing here bullying people?go look for it!!it's out there..heck-it can be in there with you but you're not seeing things straight..
    hey,and you know what?stop comparing islam with countries like in the middle east...why not try mine---malaysia?if there is such thing as a rising caliphate,i have a strong feeling it'll come from here..;p

    and i'll especially be interested in seeing ayaan continue the ruy lopez defence..still and always will be a true fan of yours!!
Updated: August 3, 2005
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