It's not Hitler's fault . . .


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    TSRians, at home and horribly plastered (I was kicked out of a very shabby pub for wearing trackies! and am consequently at home (even though they were jack wills sweatpants! - I say this with some irony don't worry)

    I am always on tsr but sadly hardly ever post, I suppose you could consider me a benign parasite.

    Anyway I want to ask TSRians this: It seems to me that most scientific study into behaviour would suggest that determinism (i.e. all our behaviour is determined by the environment/genetics etc and free-will doesn't exist) is logical. After I discovered this I spent about 6 months forgiving all wrongdoings onto myself, helping everyone out etc. (a comparison to Jesus would not be hyperbole!) In the past month I have reverted to my old judgemental elitist ways (hence the frequenting of tsr :P jokes!, sorry but I had to include the obligatory deprecation towards the forum we all worship!) because it makes my life is so much easier.


    All in all the question is: Can a society that embraces determinism (such as in B.F Skinner's Walden Two) be successful?

    And everyone please reply! I don't want this to be one of the lonely threads that haunt tsr with maybe 4 responses made up of derogatory remarks or a few asinine sentences.

    P.S. The thread title is supposed to generate more views, my apologies to anyone who had hoped to discuss the character flaws/admirable qualities of Hitler.

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    When I saw the title I expected come on here and see my screen filled with YOUR red gems lol...Decent logic behind it though. I've kinda always thought that (What you say in your post)

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    lol, I thought the same as twentyten...oh well,

    I do believe that determinism exists, however I also believe that fate is also there, as there are times in which people will do completely uncharictaristic things....surely this must be fate etc.

    sorry for crap ramble, its late

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    When drunkards get pseudo-polemical.

    *Facepalm*

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    (Original post by infernalcradle)
    lol, I thought the same as twentyten...oh well,

    I do believe that determinism exists, however I also believe that fate is also there, as there are times in which people will do completely uncharictaristic things....surely this must be fate etc.

    sorry for crap ramble, its late
    Lol you don't need to apologise to me for rambling (cite this bracketed sentence as an example of my digressions).

    Sometimes I think there is only fate. From the moment we are born our lives will all go a certain way. I think a good way to describe this is to use the Laplace's (pronounced La-place - I got heavily mocked for pronouncing his name Lap-lace) Demon thought experiment.

    Laplace writes this:

    We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes.

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    I'm a determinist, but a common misconception is that determinism doesn't allow a criminal justice system (as people shouldn't be punished for things beyond out control), which is definitely untrue.

    Why can a deterministic society not be successful?

    Behaviourism/social learning theory would advocate a criminal justice system and if you accept that people lack free will the criminal justice system can focus on changing people behaviours (rehabilitation) rather then petty revenge like most people supporting retribution seem to believe in.

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    (Original post by Rananagirl)
    When drunkards get pseudo-polemical.

    *Facepalm*
    Heh amusing post but i don't know why it is pseudo-polemic. Polemic I can understand, after all, abrahamic religions will defend their free-will reliant doctrines!

    P.S. I want to admit to googling what polemic meant. So thank you for indirectly teaching me a new word.

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    (Original post by Polites)
    I don't know enough about determinism to pass comment, sorry.
    You could try reading Beyond Freedom and Dignity by B.F. Skinner. But before you do I recommend google imaging him - he had a unique and amusing look and I think I enjoyed the work all the more by imagining his head speaking the words to me.

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    (Original post by paperclip)
    I'm a determinist, but a common misconception is that determinism doesn't allow a criminal justice system (as people shouldn't be punished for things beyond out control), which is definitely untrue.

    Why can a deterministic society not be successful?

    Behaviourism/social learning theory would advocate a criminal justice system and if you accept that people lack free will the criminal justice system can focus on changing people behaviours (rehabilitation) rather then petty revenge like most people supporting retribution seem to believe in.
    Completely agree with you on the rehabilitation point. I think what I really meant is whether a society which appreciates determinism would be possible now. I don't think it would be because our society, for better or for worse, is heavily reliant on 'Judeo-Christian Morality' as well as many other concepts which do not seem compatible.

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    Anyways, a while ago there was a small bit in New Scientist that possibly gave more weight to free will. Can't really remember it now, but it was there.

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    Determinism does not imply lack of blame or justice system

    /thread

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    (Original post by Kadostar)
    TSRians, at home and horribly plastered (I was kicked out of a very shabby pub for wearing trackies! and am consequently at home (even though they were jack wills sweatpants! - I say this with some irony don't worry)

    I am always on tsr but sadly hardly ever post, I suppose you could consider me a benign parasite.

    Anyway I want to ask TSRians this: It seems to me that most scientific study into behaviour would suggest that determinism (i.e. all our behaviour is determined by the environment/genetics etc and free-will doesn't exist) is logical. After I discovered this I spent about 6 months forgiving all wrongdoings onto myself, helping everyone out etc. (a comparison to Jesus would not be hyperbole!) In the past month I have reverted to my old judgemental elitist ways (hence the frequenting of tsr :P jokes!, sorry but I had to include the obligatory deprecation towards the forum we all worship!) because it makes my life is so much easier.


    All in all the question is: Can a society that embraces determinism (such as in B.F Skinner's Walden Two) be successful?

    And everyone please reply! I don't want this to be one of the lonely threads that haunt tsr with maybe 4 responses made up of derogatory remarks or a few asinine sentences.

    P.S. The thread title is supposed to generate more views, my apologies to anyone who had hoped to discuss the character flaws/admirable qualities of Hitler.
    surely it embracing determinism has no effect on success......you've basically failed to understand what determinism is there OP :facepalm:

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    I don't see how people cannot believe in free will

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    Nicely put, but sober & lonely

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    (Original post by Joluk)
    I don't see how people cannot believe in free will
    I believe that free will is an illusion. Why do you believe in free will?

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    (Original post by Kadostar)
    TSRians, at home and horribly plastered (I was kicked out of a very shabby pub for wearing trackies! and am consequently at home (even though they were jack wills sweatpants! - I say this with some irony don't worry)

    I am always on tsr but sadly hardly ever post, I suppose you could consider me a benign parasite.

    Anyway I want to ask TSRians this: It seems to me that most scientific study into behaviour would suggest that determinism (i.e. all our behaviour is determined by the environment/genetics etc and free-will doesn't exist) is logical. After I discovered this I spent about 6 months forgiving all wrongdoings onto myself, helping everyone out etc. (a comparison to Jesus would not be hyperbole!) In the past month I have reverted to my old judgemental elitist ways (hence the frequenting of tsr :P jokes!, sorry but I had to include the obligatory deprecation towards the forum we all worship!) because it makes my life is so much easier.


    All in all the question is: Can a society that embraces determinism (such as in B.F Skinner's Walden Two) be successful?

    And everyone please reply! I don't want this to be one of the lonely threads that haunt tsr with maybe 4 responses made up of derogatory remarks or a few asinine sentences.

    P.S. The thread title is supposed to generate more views, my apologies to anyone who had hoped to discuss the character flaws/admirable qualities of Hitler.
    Ahaha, i love the way you talk.

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    (Original post by Peachesishere)
    Ahaha, i love the way you talk.
    I second this x

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    Strawson's famous article Freedom and Resentment will probably be an interesting read for you OP (moral responsibility in the face of determinism; reactive attitudes to others are not something to be displaced by the deterministic thesis).

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    (Original post by birdsong1)
    Determinism does not imply lack of blame or justice system

    /thread
    Indeed.

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    (Original post by RawJoh1)
    Indeed.
    Well if you're not a compatibilist then it does imply lack of (legitimate) blame.

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: February 12, 2010

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