Independant vs. state in US and UK

SolInvincitus

Just out of curiosity, might anyone give me a rough comparison of independant vs. state schools in the UK and private vs. public schools in the US? I want to get a better idea of education systems outside of North America.

Does the Public/State school factor make a sizeable difference in the Oxbridge admissions process?

I don't know about the US, but over here, private schools generally have better exam results due to better teaching, better facilites, smaller classes and a better atmosphere. As for Oxbridge, they're about equal numbers private and state, but when you consider that only 8% of students in the UK attend private schools, there are still way more of them at Oxbridge than there should be.

Reply 3

zoraster

Where did you go to school, sol? I have lots of friends from various high schools both private and public

Reply 4

SolInvictus

OP

Clements High School. How about you Zoraster?

Reply 5

whauden

kellywood_5

As for Oxbridge, they're about equal numbers private and state, but when you consider that only 8% of students in the UK attend private schools, there are still way more of them at Oxbridge than there should be.

A little prejudice coming through there? Or did you mean to say proportionally Private school-ers have much higher entrance rates?

Reply 6

zoraster

I went to St. Mark's. Clements sounds familiar, but I'm not sure where/who I know it from.

Reply 7

priya

14

kellywood_5

I don't know about the US, but over here, private schools generally have better exam results due to better teaching, better facilites, smaller classes and a better atmosphere. As for Oxbridge, they're about equal numbers private and state, but when you consider that only 8% of students in the UK attend private schools, there are still way more of them at Oxbridge than there should be.

not true. if they weren't good enough, they wouldn't be there. i thought like you when i was in school, because i'd been through the state system all my life as well. oxbridge are going to accept the best candidates. if the best candidates happen to come from private schools, (even after all the weighing up of exam results and interviews) then so be it. the fault lies in not enough state school pupils APPLYING, and the general lack of opportunities offered by state schools in comparison to private ones. it's not oxbridge's fault, they need to maintain their standards.

Reply 8

beeblebrox87

priya

the fault lies in not enough state school pupils APPLYING, and the general lack of opportunities offered by state schools in comparison to private ones. it's not oxbridge's fault, they need to maintain their standards.

But more state school pupils "should" apply, and state schools "should" offer more opportunities. If this occurred, there would be fewer private school pupils at Oxbridge. Therefore there are still more private school pupils at Oxbridge than their "should" be. Sorry, nitpick.

Reply 9

whauden

beeblebrox87

But more state school pupils "should" apply, and state schools "should" offer more opportunities. If this occurred, there would be fewer private school pupils at Oxbridge. Therefore there are still more private school pupils at Oxbridge than their "should" be. Sorry, nitpick.

What awful logic - using two different meanings of the word 'should' doesnt justify a flawed argument.

Reply 10

JHutcher

Surely if Oxbridge take the most intellectually capable students in the country then there should be more state pupils than there are and less private school pupils.

Private schools can make intellect stretch further in terms of grades than State schools... and there lies their success in terms of grades and oxbridge.

Its an unfair system because we don't live in a country where everyone has equal access to education and for that we should be ashamed.

As for the success of private schools... teaching is a minor factor with resources and class sizes having a far greater influence. Its easier to dicipline in a private school because the threat of expulsion is real. And parents who invest in there childrens education tend to support there children and there education more.

Look at the most successful state school pupils and you will see either amazing intelligence... or smaller class sizes, less behavioural problems and good teaching.

Its for these reasons that cam has CSAS and that information on class sizes etc are taken into account on application.

So yes there are far more private school pupils than there should be... but thats the fault of the educational opportunities the government offers not prejudice in the applications procedure.

(locks up the rest of his socialist whats it.)

Reply 11

whauden

A little prejudice coming through there? Or did you mean to say proportionally Private school-ers have much higher entrance rates?

I just meant that proportionally, the fact that only 8% of students attend private schools yet 50% of Oxbridge students attended private schools shows that they have a much higher success rate. Sorry if that caused any offence, it wasn't meant to :redface:

Reply 12

priya

not true. if they weren't good enough, they wouldn't be there. i thought like you when i was in school, because i'd been through the state system all my life as well. oxbridge are going to accept the best candidates. if the best candidates happen to come from private schools, (even after all the weighing up of exam results and interviews) then so be it. the fault lies in not enough state school pupils APPLYING, and the general lack of opportunities offered by state schools in comparison to private ones. it's not oxbridge's fault, they need to maintain their standards.

Sorry, my post wasn't very clear. I wasn't criticisng Oxbridge for accepting too many private school applicants, I just meant that proportionally there are more private school students at Oxbridge than there would be if state school pupils had the same opportunities.

Reply 13

Helenia

20

kellywood_5

I just meant that proportionally, the fact that only 8% of students attend private schools yet 50% of Oxbridge students attended private schools shows that they have a much higher success rate. Sorry if that caused any offence, it wasn't meant to :redface:

That statistic isn't really representative of what should be the makeup of Oxbridge students though - when you consider the relative percentages of pupils getting AAA at A-Level (i.e. roughly of Oxbridge calibre) then it's about 35-40% at private schools, 60-65% at state schools.

There are a number of reasons for this: -

Private schools are often selective so have a higher number of high-ability pupils whereas state schools take everyone and so will have the whole range of results.

There is a significant number of state school pupils transferring to private schools for 6th form, so the overall numbers in the system change slightly.

Yes, private school pupils will benefit from smaller classes, perhaps better quality teaching etc, so more of them will get AAA, some of whom might perhaps not have at state schools. But I don't think that all 27-32% difference (between nationwide percentage IN private schools and percentage getting 3 As) is just down to that.

So...what I'm saying it that currently, while the numbers as they are aren't really right, they shouldn't go so far as to be 92% state. Probably somewhere between 60:40 and 70:30 would be more representative of the ability split.

Reply 14

SolInvictus

OP

zoraster

I went to St. Mark's. Clements sounds familiar, but I'm not sure where/who I know it from.

St. Mark's as in San Marcos? I think I know a girl who went there. Clements High School should sound familiar. It is one of the three best schools in the whole of southeast Texas, and the Gulf Coast, and is second only to St. John's and Bellaire.

Here is an article on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clements_High_School

They missed out on a lot of information, though. Clements is now offering Italian, Hindi, Arabic, and Portuguese.

Reply 15

WhatFreshHell?

2

priya

not true. if they weren't good enough, they wouldn't be there. i thought like you when i was in school, because i'd been through the state system all my life as well. oxbridge are going to accept the best candidates. if the best candidates happen to come from private schools, (even after all the weighing up of exam results and interviews) then so be it. the fault lies in not enough state school pupils APPLYING, and the general lack of opportunities offered by state schools in comparison to private ones. it's not oxbridge's fault, they need to maintain their standards.

Although I don't actively disagree with what you're saying here, I think there is a point to be made that if Oxbridge are going to be the top of the british academic tree, then maybe they have to shoulder a portion of the responsibility for the imbalances in the educational system.

Also, maybe someone (who understands the english system better than I do) should clarify the different types of school you get in england, e.g. selective state schools, grammar schools, etc.

Reply 16

WhatFreshHell?

Also, maybe someone (who understands the english system better than I do) should clarify the different types of school you get in england, e.g. selective state schools, grammar schools, etc.

A selective state school is called a grammar school. You take a test at the age of 11 and if you get a high enough pass mark, you can go to a grammar school, which get better results due to their selective nature and high expectations. There are relatively few grammar schools left now because the Labour government are opposed to them, so many areas are fully comprehensive, which means everyone goes to the same type of school irrespective of ability, although these schools tend to have sets based on ability. Finally, there are private schools.

Reply 17

Helenia

20

And private schools may be selective based on ability, and some may not...

Plus, just to confuse the issue, some grammar schools went independent when the government tried to close them, so there are now private grammar schools which you have to pay for, but are still very good academically.

Reply 18

magicalsausage

10

kellywood_5

A selective state school is called a grammar school. You take a test at the age of 11 and if you get a high enough pass mark, you can go to a grammar school, which get better results due to their selective nature and high expectations. There are relatively few grammar schools left now because the Labour government are opposed to them, so many areas are fully comprehensive, which means everyone goes to the same type of school irrespective of ability, although these schools tend to have sets based on ability. Finally, there are private schools.

The disappearence of the grammar school system happened mainly in the 1970s, it's nothing to do with the current Labour government. In fact this government has been taking small steps towards more selective schooling, albeit in a very strange way - subject-specialist schools and all that.

Reply 19

zxczxc