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BSc Economics, no Maths experience in 7 years- will I struggle?

Hi guys, I posted this question in the Loughborough section of the forum too- as that is where I would be studying, so thought I may get more concise answers there.

However, I thought I'd post here too.. as there don't seem to be too many active economics students in there. So here is the question;

Hi guys,

Anyone doing BSc Economics @ Loughborough? I'm a mature student and have an offer for a place on the above named course.

I am just wondering how much Maths and how hard the maths would be to grasp for me, I have not done any Maths since leaving school 7 years ago.

Is there support in place for people without Maths A level? I have the ability and willingness to learn..
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Reply 1

yoyo462001

Im assuming the last time you did maths was a GCSE? and if so then yes i think you will struggle with the Maths at Msc Econ, you will probably have to do tones of work just to catch up.

However do you already posses a degree?
is this degree mathematical at all?
do you know Calculus?
How much statistics have you done?

Reply 2

xSkyFire

Yes you will, you'll need to put in a crapload of work.

Reply 3

Overmars

Loughborough offer a diploma in Economics too, I believe...for students that want to do an MSc in 2 years, with their first year giving them the necessary preparation.

Masters courses in Economics differ from university to university. You'd be better off asking the university directly if a detailed enough description isn't listed on their website.

It might be worth checking out Paulwhy's guide for Warwick: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10923238&postcount=1

edit: Also...again for Warwick...

Paulwhy

What will I need to know?

Firstly in terms of Economics you need an Upper Second.

Secondly in terms of Maths/Stats requirements:
a) Maths
i) Calculus:
functions of several variables
partial derivatives
constrained optimization using Lagrange multipliers
integration,
ii)Linear Algebra
matrix algebra
linear equations
rank
inverse
determinants.

b)stats
probability theory
distribution theory (binomial, normal and associated distributions)
sampling theory
statistical inference
interval estimation
hypothesis testing (means and variances)
least squares regression

Reply 4

unknownrebalz

MikeyS

It depends on how much you remember. If you do nothing between now and the time you start your course then yes; you will. especially as economics is maths based.

However, the university must think that you can cope having given you an offer. Also If I were you I'd go through every A2 level and undergraduate Mathematics and physics book I can find and go through them. Make sure you know all you need to know before you start your course. If you do that you should be fine.

Reply 5

MikeyS

My brother is doing a PHD in physics, and he is a similar ability level to me. He also said he couldn't remember any of his A level Maths (he took a gap year before doing his degree). But soone picked it back up. I have done no maths since GCSE. ALthough I did take it early and did a bit of As Maths. I can't remember any of it though.

I also did GCSE statistics a year early. But can't remember any. I chose to apply for Loughborough BSc Economics as Maths A level wasn't required, they offer some kind of support I think for people without Maths A level. THat's why I also posted in the Loughborough section, to see if anyone can give me any more information who studies it there.

I've also got an offer for Industrial Economics at Nottingham, which is obviously less mathematical. But arguably less academic. It's therefore an important decision between the two I have to make, I don;t want to choose the BSc in pure economics if I['m going to struggle.

I would brush up on Maths over the summer.

Reply 6

astudent

I think the fact that you were admitted means that you can cope with the course. However you should be prepared to put in the work (which im assuming you will be, after all going back to education after 7 years means that you really have a strong motivation) and dont be put down by people who are finding the maths stuff easier than you; just keep at it.

Reply 7

MikeyS

Guys I made a large mistake in the title, It's a BSc not MSc i'm talking about!

Reply 8

flugestuge

MikeyS

The maths in economics is pretty elementary.
It is only a little bit of statistics, linear algebra and basic calculus up to differential equations.
Just a little bit more than A level.
Nothing at all compared to a real Maths degree or even an Engineering degree.

Reply 9

MikeyS

Cool.. cheers. So you reckon I'll be able to pick it up pretty easily then? Apparently they have two different classes, one for people who did A level Maths and one fore people who didn't do A level Maths- and by the second year you will be up to speed..

flugestuge

Reply 10

flugestuge

MikeyS

Cool.. cheers. So you reckon I'll be able to pick it up pretty easily then?

Yes, it should be fine.
If you are moderately motivated and semi-intelligent, you could even self teach yourself most of the maths before you start.

The maths in economics is really, really easy until you get to PhD level.
Even at PhD level, it is only equal to the material in a first year Maths degree.
Even for a PhD, they only use a bit of real and complex analysis, and the very basics of measure theory, metric spaces and topology.
ie: relatively simple stuff.
Much less than the maths you brother will have do do in his PhD in Physics.
And if you are at the same level of ability as your brother, you should have no problems.
You do not need great intelligence or great mathematical ability to do economics.

Reply 11

MikeyS

Thanks, that puts my mind at ease. I will definately self teach myself some of the mathematical content over the summer.

Industrial economics BA at Notts was the other option, but i', guessing even though Loughborough does not have such a good reputation, that employers would value the BSc more highly?

flugestuge

Yes, it should be fine.
If you moderately motivated, you could even self teach yourself most of the maths before you start.

The maths in economics is really, really easy until you get to PhD level. Even at PhD level, it is only equal to the material in a first year Maths degree.

Reply 12

flugestuge

MikeyS

Thanks, that puts my mind at ease. I will definitely self teach myself some of the mathematical content over the summer.

Industrial economics BA at Notts was the other option, but i', guessing even though Loughborough does not have such a good reputation, that employers would value the BSc more highly?

Work through the book by Alpha Chiang.
That will take care of all of the mathematical needs of your degree and even will cover a lot of first year graduate maths.
( Yes, the maths in economics is really that elementary )

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Methods-Mathematical-Economics-3rd/dp/0070108137

To quote one review:
"
Professor Chiang's "Fundamental Methods of Mathematical Economics" has become the classic preparatory text for students beginning a [graduate ] course of quantitative study in economics and finance. It has been in print for nearly a generation, and with good reason. Chiang's achievement is to have created a learning programme that can take a modestly numerate person all the way from basic matrix algebra through limits, continuity and derivatives past simple differential equations all the way to optimisation theory and linear programming. And all in one volume! Little prior training is required for this journey - all you need is basic algebra. The explication is admirably clear, there are plenty of good practice examples and the pace is moderate. "Mastering Chiang," as one of my old professors used to call it, provides an excellent foundation for the economics or finance student and will admirably equip him or her to deal with the more rigorous challenges ahead."

Reply 13

MikeyS

Awesome, that looks ideal! Thanks +rep

flugestuge

Reply 14

flugestuge

And if you are really keen ( or are planning to go to Oxbridge or LSE or for your undergraduate ), you should also read Simon and Blume along with Chiang.

http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Economists-Carl-P-Simon/dp/0393957330/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t

To quote one review:
"
You may think that this book is similar to Chiang's book Fundamental Methods of Mathematical Economics, but you would be wrong to think so. The perspectives are different and therefore their "path of guidance" is also different: Chiang explains from the viewpoint of economics, Blume explains from the viewpoint of mathematics. In other words it uses the lens of mathematics to view the landscape of economics.

Therefore Blume's book is more "pure" mathematics than Chiang, i.e. you will learn more about mathematics in Blume's book than in the latter. Whether this is an important difference to you or not depends on how much you like mathematics as a subject and how much you wish to understand it.

Speaking as an Economics Masters student, either book will prepare you well for advanced studies. Speaking as a person who likes mathematics for its own sake, Blume's book is more rewarding to work with.
...f I am to understand and use a method I need to understand the details, otherwise I am not convinced of the validity and usefulness of what I am learning, and the picture feels incomplete. Blume's book has given me the details I needed. It helped me understand mathematics and the structure of economic models better, something I often struggled with after working through less rigorous books.

Even-though the authors state in their preface that it is best if the prospective student already knows a little about calculus and matrix algebra before using the book: the first 9 chapters in the book - over 200 pages! -gives as good a coverage of these topics as any beginner's book that I have seen and worked with."

Reply 15

MagicNMedicine

This is a good general guide as to what you will need to know:
http://www.socialsciences.manchester.ac.uk/disciplines/economics/postgraduate/psmaths/

Its for the University of Manchester's Pre-sessional Maths course for their MSc, but the part saying what the pre-assumed knowledge is before going on the pre-sessional relates to what Maths they expect you to have used on your degree. I would recommend getting familiar with that over the summer before you start, because if you are trying to learn Maths as you go, you will be chasing your tail throughout the course.

Whilst it's not rocket science Maths, it is stuff that will seem like rocket science if you haven't done Maths A-level....Maths is the language of Economics and you need a reasonable amount of fluency otherwise nothing will make sense.

The book they mention on the Manchester site, Ian Jacques, “Mathematics for Economics & Business” is a good place to start if you haven't done Maths for a while and are only at GCSE level. This basically assumes no Maths fluency and just teaches you what you need to know to get by.

However I would recommend trying to get hold of the Simon and Blume book mentioned above, which will teach you the Maths better, in a way that will make you start to understand the Maths and how to work with it. It might be better to work from this during your course, and between 1st/2nd year summer holiday (the maths might start to really kick in in 2nd year microeconomics) because it talks in terms of economic models so you will need to know what it's talking about, the early pages start off on indifference curves and consumer choice theory.

You won't need to know everything from an A level Maths syllabus but the parts you will need to know from it, you will need to work to above A level standard to do economics....so make sure by the time you start your 1st year that you are confident with basic calculus, ie differentiation and integration, because when it comes to production functions, cost/revenue/profit maximisation and minimisation etc, you will need to know how to find the maximum and minimum points from a graph, ie you will need to differentiate them.

Reply 16

flugestuge

I guess that the Jacques book is ok if you last did maths for the GCSE.
You can probably skim read Jacques in less than a week.
However, the pace is so slow and it is so obviously aimed at the very dim that it rapidly becomes infuriating.

BTW, I find it hilarious that Mancester University think that the maths in Jacques is adequate as a prerequisite for their MSc.
That speaks volumes both about the level of their course and the kind of students they get.

Reply 17

yoyo462001

well the jacques book is what we used for our maths l course and that was too basic and unchallenging and imo is no where near enough for an msc economics let alone bsc, however he is doing bsc economics. i know in loughbrough they do provide quite alot support for those without A level maths

Reply 18

sil3nt_cha0s

I'm not sure about the mathematical content of BSc Economics at Loughborough, as I don't go there, but it would probably be best to get up to speed with the core and stats modules of A Level Maths. Even learning the Further Pure modules could help, though I doubt it for Loughborough.

Reply 19

MagicNMedicine

Jacques is really aimed at people who don't have A level Maths. There are a lot of people who just don't "get" maths and Jacques is accessible for them. Whilst Simon and Blume is best for teaching people how to get it, the problem is maths phobes very quickly give up on stuff that has long equations in.

Maths is a subject which you can teach yourself out of books more easily than a lot of subjects. There are some links here: http://www.economicsnetwork.ac.uk/subjects/mathsforeconomists.htm

there are some quizzes and self tests on there which you can do when you've done some reading on the theory to check you know what you are talking about.

Best advice if you are just at GCSE level at the moment I would say get hold of a copy of Jacques....work through it, its user friendly, that will build you some confidence. If you know the level of maths in Jacques you'll be ok to start an undergrad degree in Economics, but then get Simon and Blume while you're at uni to help yourself through the Mathematical parts of the course.

Also if they give you options to take mathematical economics options, do them, they might sound harder than some of the soft options, but you will need to know the maths for higher economics stuff anyway, so you may as well take a structured course to teach you it, than having to try and learn it on your own as part of another module.