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My PERSONAL defense as a muslim, but above it, as a decent human being

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    I posted this reply on the thread: do they mean it:as a muslim i can personally say that i feel a great surge of shame when i view the things done in the name of my religion. How you may ask am i condemning the acts: by this small gesture: i gave 3 minutes of peace to those who died on the 7/7 attacks.
    ur question is like asking whether the germans condemn the nazi slaughter of the jews and slavs.
    Now who here thinks i'm lying, and why?
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    As a western, white, Christian, conservative, middle class student,

    I believe you.

    If it means anything.
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    (Original post by NathanL)
    As a western, white, Christian, conservative, middle class student,

    I believe you.

    If it means anything.
    It does. Thanks.
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    I believe you too.
    I think that those who are kind and good muslims should not have a bad name brought to them because of the acts of very few others, who have no similarity to the good people, except that they practice the same religion.
    There are millions of good muslims who should not be condemned by the very small minority!!
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    I don't get it. This isn't a question of muslims versus other religions.
    It's a question of extremist terrorists versus established societies with who's views they disagree. Fundamentalist Christian groups have blown up clinics yet we don't blame Christianity as a whole for that. Why do people even see this as having anything to do with religion at all? It's not about religion, it's about extremism.
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    (Original post by Calvin)
    I don't get it. This isn't a question of muslims versus other religions.
    It's a question of extremist terrorists versus established societies with who's views they disagree. Fundamentalist Christian groups have blown up clinics yet we don't blame Christianity as a whole for that. Why do people even see this as having anything to do with religion at all? It's not about religion, it's about extremism.
    :congrats:

    Rep as soon as I can dish it out.
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    (Original post by Calvin)
    I don't get it. This isn't a question of muslims versus other religions.
    It's a question of extremist terrorists versus established societies with who's views they disagree. Fundamentalist Christian groups have blown up clinics yet we don't blame Christianity as a whole for that.
    what do you mean "We"?
    Why do people even see this as having anything to do with religion at all? It's not about religion, it's about extremism.
    Because extemism is the consequence of taking religion to...well,... to extremes. With islam there is the further complication that muslims beleiev the kkoran is absolutely true, so extremists- if they can make their case from the koran- are just as entitled as the others to claim to be following the religion properly.
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    Most Muslims feared a backlash in physical terms - angry mobs of skinheads setting fire and destroying mosques. Indeed this happened, but something is also happening that many Muslims have not braced themselves for: an ideological backlash. Many Muslims may be indifferent to this debate, but stop and see some of the other threads on TSR. I recall one post saying theological critics will aim the gun as Islam in about 500 years time - the 7/7 attacks have catalysed this process.
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    (Original post by Calvin)
    I don't get it. This isn't a question of muslims versus other religions.
    It's a question of extremist terrorists versus established societies with who's views they disagree. Fundamentalist Christian groups have blown up clinics yet we don't blame Christianity as a whole for that. Why do people even see this as having anything to do with religion at all? It's not about religion, it's about extremism.
    True. tell that to those who generalizedin the 'do they mean it' thread, which i took very personally and offensively. this is the reason i started this thread in the first place.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    what do you mean "We"?
    It's usually easy to tell where the lines are when people say thigs about 'us' and 'them'.

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Because extemism is the consequence of taking religion to...well,... to extremes. With islam there is the further complication that muslims beleiev the kkoran is absolutely true, so extremists- if they can make their case from the koran- are just as entitled as the others to claim to be following the religion properly.
    In the Qu'ran it's forbidden to harm civilans. People who ignore things like that are as muslim as people who drink alcohol,(which is to say they are) but at least they don't claim to be drinking in the name of Allah.
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    (Original post by Calvin)
    I don't get it. This isn't a question of muslims versus other religions.
    It's a question of extremist terrorists versus established societies with who's views they disagree. Fundamentalist Christian groups have blown up clinics yet we don't blame Christianity as a whole for that. Why do people even see this as having anything to do with religion at all? It's not about religion, it's about extremism.
    This argument is rather simplistic. Would you also say that nazism should not be blamed for what some dangerous extremists (Hitler, Goehring, Goebbels etc) made of an otherwise peaceful doctrine, followed by millions of honest, hard-working, law-abiding German citizens and voters?
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    Simplistic argument yet you're contradicting yourself. Either Nazism is a peaceful acceptable doctrine in which case no it shouldn't be blamed for Hitlers perversion of it. Or else it isn't a peaceful doctrine in which case it's not relevent to this discussion.

    If I start blowing things up and pointing out I'm an Athiest, does that mean all athiests are somehow at fault? No, because athiests as a whole don't encourage those sort of actions. So what's the difference here? Muslims don't encourage these kind of actions either.

    Why should Islam as a whole be blameworthy? Because these extremists say they are muslims of course! Just like we blame Ireland for every IRA bombing, or all Londoners for every case of petty thievery in the city, or all men for every rape... :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Calvin)
    Simplistic argument yet you're contradicting yourself. Either Nazism is a peaceful acceptable doctrine in which case no it shouldn't be blamed for Hitlers perversion of it. Or else it isn't a peaceful doctrine in which case it's not relevent to this discussion.

    If I start blowing things up and pointing out I'm an Athiest, does that mean all athiests are somehow at fault? No, because athiests as a whole don't encourage those sort of actions. So what's the difference here? Muslims don't encourage these kind of actions either.

    Why should Islam as a whole be blameworthy? Because these extremists say they are muslims of course! Just like we blame Ireland for every IRA bombing, or all Londoners for every case of petty thievery in the city, or all men for every rape... :rolleyes:
    I was, of course, making a paradox. Nazism was not a peaceful doctrine, even if millions of peaceful, law-abiding citizens voted for it.

    Muslims are, in their vast majority, peaceful, law-abiding citizens, but in Islam you can find enough violent principles to start any amount of world wars.

    So, in the end a religious/political theory has to be judged by the actions of its followers and its general impact on society. What else?

    By the way, I don't think that Londoners involved in thefts and rapes act in the name of Londonism.
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    It's usually easy to tell where the lines are when people say thigs about 'us' and 'them'.
    I was pointing out to Calvin that some of us do blame christianity when people do bad things and justify them from religious doctrines.


    In the Qu'ran it's forbidden to harm civilans. People who ignore things like that are as muslim as people who drink alcohol,(which is to say they are) but at least they don't claim to be drinking in the name of Allah.
    Innocent civilains if i remember rightly, which gives a lot of leeway for redefinition.
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    (Original post by Calvin)
    we blame Ireland for every IRA bombing,
    The definition of Irishness underlying the Irish Republic, the glorification of sacrifice from the Easter Rising onwards, exemplified by connolly and Pearce, are greatly to blame for the IRA and their actions, in fact. One of the problems that Ireland and Irish people had for many years was the enormous difference between the actual Ireland they lived in [or left] and the ideal Ireland they were supposed to want to live in.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    The definition of Irishness underlying the Irish Republic, the glorification of sacrifice from the Easter Rising onwards, exemplified by connolly and Pearce, are greatly to blame for the IRA and their actions, in fact. One of the problems that Ireland and Irish people had for many years was the enormous difference between the actual Ireland they lived in [or left] and the ideal Ireland they were supposed to want to live in.
    The continuous glorification of the ancient Caliphate, the idealization of early Islam as a society where all religions could coexist freely, the exaltation of the cultural and scientific achievements of Islam breed an atmosphere of frustration.

    While early Islam did obtain some impressive achievements, it was far from being the ideal society portrayed by many Muslims. Exaggerating these achievements leads to permanent frustration: Muslims ask themselves "We inherited the true religion, the perfect society, what went wrong? why are the infidels stronger, richer, more advanced in all fields?"

    The answers to these nagging questions are "We have to go back to the original, pure Islam. Accessorily, we have to crush the American/Zionist/Capitalist conspiration, which is the concrete obstacle to the unfolding of the true religion and the building of the perfect Islamic society"

    Also, depicting Western society as hopelessly corrupt, decadent and immoral is good for the ego.
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    (Original post by Darth)
    I posted this reply on the thread: do they mean it:as a muslim i can personally say that i feel a great surge of shame when i view the things done in the name of my religion. How you may ask am i condemning the acts: by this small gesture: i gave 3 minutes of peace to those who died on the 7/7 attacks.
    ur question is like asking whether the germans condemn the nazi slaughter of the jews and slavs.
    Now who here thinks i'm lying, and why?
    Of course I don't think you're lying, and I don't give a damn which religion other people choose to believe in; however, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Islam 'advertise' other religions as strangers/enemies, and don't Muslims have to wage jihad if their religious leaders declare it? It just seems to me that the religion seems a bit too isolated and violent than it needs to be, a bit too ready to promote war rather than peace - although as a Christian even I have no idea what kind of odd archaic laws we might have :P
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    Just take a look at the way christians behaved when they could for most of their history. Christains behaving comparatively decently to one another and to non-christians is a very recent phenomenon.
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    (Original post by giordano)
    I was, of course, making a paradox. Nazism was not a peaceful doctrine, even if millions of peaceful, law-abiding citizens voted for it.

    Muslims are, in their vast majority, peaceful, law-abiding citizens, but in Islam you can find enough violent principles to start any amount of world wars.

    So, in the end a religious/political theory has to be judged by the actions of its followers and its general impact on society. What else?

    By the way, I don't think that Londoners involved in thefts and rapes act in the name of Londonism.
    And if they did claim that?



    What is it to be a Muslim? I'm not really sure but I would imagine its something like: To worship Allah and to follow the teachings of the Qur'an.

    Now notice how many people are muslims and what a minute proportion of them go and blow people up. How can you blame Islam for that? Even if the Qur'an said "Go forth and blow people up" how can it be the fault of Islam if they do? They have a choice to believe or not believe the teachings in the Qur'an. And then even once that happens they have a choice to act on these. A billion people somehow find the power not to go blow stuff up yet somehow Islam is responsible?!


    Peaceful Muslims and these extremists have different attitudes, morals, standards and religous beliefs.
    What exactly are you arguing these peaceful muslims and these extremists have in common relevent to Islam as a whole? They both profess a belief in the same God?- yet on one hand we have a God which encourages death and destruction and on the other a God who encourages peace.
    They follow the teachings of the Qur'an?- yet somehow they differ so massively on their interpretations of it. How can that be the fault of the book or the peaceful interpreters and not the fault of the people who chose to interpret it in a violent way?
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    (Original post by giordano)
    Also, depicting Western society as hopelessly corrupt, decadent and immoral is good for the ego.
    All I can say is that I never said that western society is any of the above(well, maybe a little) and I judge Islam by the effect it has on me, which although fairly difficult to judge can't have been bad.

    I've already said what I think of glorification of the past in a few posts: basically it doesn't matter, the only people who look to the past are those who don't care about the present and don't see a future. It's a pointless exercise.
Updated: August 10, 2005
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