My PERSONAL defense as a muslim, but above it, as a decent human being
Discuss religious, spiritual, and theological issues concerning Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.
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It's very easy to see how the terrorists justify their actions on the basis of Islam. There are a number of websites which support these actions (go to http://haganah.us/haganah/index.html , and you will find links to quite a few).(Original post by zaaks786)
hey giordano
fighting violently for the cause of islam......fighting for a just cause,yes, with no killing of innocents(but like u say....ppl can vary on who they see as innocents), no killing of women,children, no harm done to fruit bearing trees and no harm done to those who are religious..eg monks etc
ppl who violate these laws cannot really be fighting properly in the cause of islam can they????how do u kill urself and claim it for ur religion when ur religion is against this in the first place.id hardly call these ppl followers
You may consider that the suicide bombers are not true Muslims, but opinions are divided, and the bombers themselves clearly have no doubts on this point. -
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The people who are ignorant about the past will end up repeating it (who said that? someone famous, but the name escapes me).(Original post by ayaan)
the only people who look to the past are those who don't care about the present and don't see a future. It's a pointless exercise. -
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Well then I'm sorry. They were supposed to help locate exactly what the perceived difference that so many of you seem to claim makes Islam as a whole reponsible for these actions when you would disagree in other cases. And frankly I'm still at a loss because half of everything you've said seems to indicate you think it's up to the person, not the religion which I agree with. Yet somehow the other half seems to bla,e the religion. I don't see how you reconcile the two. Hence all the analogies(Original post by Manatee)
You can't compare religion and random e-mails, or computer games. Religion claims to tell people how to live, what path to follow to achieve the ultimate reward. It requires faith, which by its very nature isn't necessarily very compatible with rational questioning. If you believe in God and embrace his religion, you must follow the dictates of that religion, whatever they may be.
As I've already said, whether you or I think that a terrorist's "justification" is complete and utter nonsense is irrelevant if they truly believe in it. It may not be legitimate justification for the vast majority of sensible, rational human beings, but it is certainly legitimate justification for some. If their religion makes them believe that the action which they are taking, however repulsive under secular criteria, is acceptable or even necessary, then how can you say that religion is in no way to blame? If I construe a tax statute in such a way as to allow me to evade tax, who is to blame? Me, for being a natural born law-breaker, or the statute, for giving me an opportunity to manipulate it to achieve my evil aims? OK, not a great analogy, but you seem to be fond of them...
And I'm arguing that they are not, for the reasons which I have already stated. Religion is a collection of statements. Some believers pick and choose which statements they believe. Others believe that if you accept one, you must accept them all - if you believe in God, you must accept his holy text as it is, in its most literal interpretation. They believe that there is no choice unless that choice is to reject God altogether.
I think you should go easy on the analogies,- they don't help
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yes it is true in islam we follow the alquran..but there are SO MANY other things the quran tells us..there are SO MANY other ways to handle things...blowing people up is not the only choice..if you choose to narrow the options and think prematurely,that's your choice..(Original post by Weejimmie)
If a book is the most powerful and impressive work written in the whole of the world's history, if it contains advice and instructions that will make a paradise on earth and then get everyone who follows it to heaven you can't simply assert "you can't judge based on the actions of the followers" to explain why it hasn't done what it is supposed to do and why its most ardent and self-sacrificing followers are hated by nearly everyone else.
take this analogy--if someone spits at my face i can choose not to punch him..the quran tells you that you must be patient..hence,if some muslim extremists choose to punch,that's in their decision and only allah can judge whether he was right or wrong..
and the thing about these martyrs are...you dont really know whether they are really doing it for Allah..they could be mentally biased..due to death of some loved ones..
and if this is done,it will not be jihad anymore.. -
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yes,that may appear to be true..but the old glorious days of islam also teaches us that we muslims must not drink alcohol,must be very patient,must not be boastful and arrogant,must not neglect education,must not divide,must wear appropriate clothes,must unite as brothers...(Original post by giordano)
The people who are ignorant about the past will end up repeating it (who said that? someone famous, but the name escapes me).
it's sad to say this,as a muslim,but ive not seen plenty of all the above in the muslim world now..and that's what the main muslim leaders are trying to achieve and revive..but do the extremists contribute in this?nooo..they chose to b very impatient and cause death and destruction by-in my opinion-vengance...and they DARE claim that these actions are what Allah wants and what they're doing is jihad..they not only reduce the number of muslims,they also cause islamophobia all over the world...making it VERY difficult for muslim leaders to continue the REAL jihad in improving islam..
giordano,it's easy to see that we muslims want our glory days back...but it's definitely difficult to see that in order to relive our past we muslims must gt back to the fundamental basis of islam(the ones that are never violent)..
in time,the majority of muslims will get sick and tired of these terrorists that we ourselves will hunt them down.. -
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Yes, that's true to the extent that I don't think that it's a clear cut situation - that all extremists are just obeying their religion, or that they are simply being extremist without any religious connections at all. Inevitably every person is different. Some will use any excuse to be violent while others genuinely believe that what they are doing is sanctioned by their religion. It's the latter sort of people I was really talking about; for them, the justification is real and is very much rooted in their religious beliefs.(Original post by Calvin)
Well then I'm sorry. They were supposed to help locate exactly what the perceived difference that so many of you seem to claim makes Islam as a whole reponsible for these actions when you would disagree in other cases. And frankly I'm still at a loss because half of everything you've said seems to indicate you think it's up to the person, not the religion which I agree with. Yet somehow the other half seems to bla,e the religion. I don't see how you reconcile the two. Hence all the analogies
I hope that makes sense. I understand what you were trying to do with the analogies - unfortunately good analogies for religion are difficult to come up with (I certainly don't profess to have any) because of its unique features. -
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When I say that Muslims look back to a past which is largely imaginary, this includes the idea that the original Caliphate was a quiet, well-organized, harmonious society where all religions coexisted peacefully etc etc(Original post by Pharynx)
giordano,it's easy to see that we muslims want our glory days back...but it's definitely difficult to see that in order to relive our past we muslims must gt back to the fundamental basis of islam(the ones that are never violent)...
The Caliphate was an Empire constructed exactly as all other Empires (Roman, Persian etc), by military conquest, and it was involved in endless and almost uninterrupted violent internal strife, right from the days of Mohammed onwards.
So, it's difficult to say that it's possible to go back to "the fundamental basis of Islam, which are never violent". -
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It is simple enough. People carry the responsibility for their actions, but if they act on behalf of a religion and are obeying instructions contained in the religion's holy book the religion also carries some of the responsibility. The trouble with religion and any other absolutist ideology is not that they inspire bad people to behave badly or give bad people an excuse for behaving badly but that they inspire good people to behave badly for what they think are good reasons.(Original post by Calvin)
Well then I'm sorry. They were supposed to help locate exactly what the perceived difference that so many of you seem to claim makes Islam as a whole reponsible for these actions when you would disagree in other cases. And frankly I'm still at a loss because half of everything you've said seems to indicate you think it's up to the person, not the religion which I agree with. Yet somehow the other half seems to bla,e the religion. I don't see how you reconcile the two. Hence all the analogies
Take the suicide bombers. They love their religion so well that they are willing to die to preserve it. The people they attacked may- to you or I, who are like them and may have been them- seem like innocent bystanders but to the bombers they live in accept the rule of and serve by paying taxes agovernment which is waging war on islam. Even if the bombers' victims actually are innocent they will be martyrs like the bombers themselves and will get a fast-track to heaven as a reward for their deaths, so they ought to be grateful to the bombers. The eternity that we will live again after we die is so great that the brevity of this life is absolutely trivial in comparison, so any erroneous deaths are unimportant if regrettable.
Not just religion: look at communism, which promised the nearest we could get on earth to heaven, which inspired dedicated and kindly followers and which murdered tens of millions of people. I knew marxists who were dedicated to human rights, eapersonally kindly and humanitarian and who accepted the need to kill anyone who threatened the progress of the radiant future. Objectively- one of their favourite words- objectively, anyone who interfered with the progress of socialism, whatever their apparent motives, was an enemy of the people and needed to be destroyed for entirely humane reasons. -
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Recent left-wing terrorism (Rote Armee Fraktion, Brigate Rosse etc) is probably the nearest analogy we can have to the present Islamist attacks.(Original post by Weejimmie)
It is simple enough. People carry the responsibility for their actions, but if they act on behalf of a religion and are obeying instructions contained in the religion's holy book the religion also carries some of the responsibility. The trouble with religion and any other absolutist ideology is not that they inspire bad people to behave badly or give bad people an excuse for behaving badly but that they inspire good people to behave badly for what they think are good reasons.
Take the suicide bombers. They love their religion so well that they are willing to die to preserve it. The people they attacked may- to you or I, who are like them and may have been them- seem like innocent bystanders but to the bombers they live in accept the rule of and serve by paying taxes agovernment which is waging war on islam. Even if the bombers' victims actually are innocent they will be martyrs like the bombers themselves and will get a fast-track to heaven as a reward for their deaths, so they ought to be grateful to the bombers. The eternity that we will live again after we die is so great that the brevity of this life is absolutely trivial in comparison, so any erroneous deaths are unimportant if regrettable.
Not just religion: look at communism, which promised the nearest we could get on earth to heaven, which inspired dedicated and kindly followers and which murdered tens of millions of people. I knew marxists who were dedicated to human rights, eapersonally kindly and humanitarian and who accepted the need to kill anyone who threatened the progress of the radiant future. Objectively- one of their favourite words- objectively, anyone who interfered with the progress of socialism, whatever their apparent motives, was an enemy of the people and needed to be destroyed for entirely humane reasons.
The similarities between "Islamic"fundamentalism and Marxist ideology are, in fact, impressive by any standard. -
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for the record i dont believe every muslims wants to:
1)congratulate or otherwise agree to terrorism
2)blow me up
as for the islamic extremists i do believe that thjey are using islam wrong and twisting words of the quoran for terrorist purposes. -
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You are probably right, but even if only 0.05% of Muslims wants to blow you up, it means there are around 600,000 people out to get you. Take care.(Original post by twokeyalexe)
for the record i dont believe every muslims wants to:
1)congratulate or otherwise agree to terrorism
2)blow me up .
