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Multiple Universes

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    So there is a theory that there are an infinite number of universes. Lets hypothetically say that it's fact (although I know it isn't) for the sake of the question.

    If there are multiple universes what implication does that have for religous thought?

    In the case of monotheism are there an infinite number of Gods; one for each universe?

    Or is there just one God who created all of them? If this is believed then it means that people were not created uniquely by God because it would mean there were many different versions of the same person. There would be many different versions of important religous figures as well (e.g. Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed etc.) and surely this would have it's own implications on religous thought too.

    What are peoples thoughts on this?
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    (Original post by ForAllOfThis)
    So there is a theory that there are an infinite number of universes. Lets hypothetically say that it's fact (although I know it isn't) for the sake of the question.

    If there are multiple universes what implication does that have for religous thought?

    In the case of monotheism are there an infinite number of Gods; one for each universe?

    Or is there just one God who created all of them? If this is believed then it means that people were not created uniquely by God because it would mean there were many different versions of the same person. There would be many different versions of important religous figures as well (e.g. Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed etc.) and surely this would have it's own implications on religous thought too.

    What are peoples thoughts on this?
    I don't know about Abrahamic religions, but in Dharmic ones the idea of multiple universes already exists in their theology, originating in Hinduism. So if infinite universes did turn out to be fact, it wouldn't have a negative affect on religion, but quite the opposite.
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    (Original post by Charzhino)
    I don't know about Abrahamic religions, but in Dharmic ones the idea of multiple universes already exists in their theology, originating in Hinduism. So if infinite universes did turn out to be fact, it wouldn't have a negative affect on religion, but quite the opposite.
    I guess the question has more implications for christian and catholic theology then. I know a lot less about Hinduism.

    Do you know how it is told that there are multiple universes in Hinduism? Is it told that they are similar to our universes or completely different? The theory itself suggests that there would be both; I'm just wondering how accurate the expression of that belief would be in hinduism? If it's not very accurate there would still be implications.

    However if it is quite an accurate belief which coincides with the theory and theres someone who knows a great deal more about hinduism than I do then I ask the reverse question; what if a multiple universe theory is disproved one day? What implications would that have on Hinduism?
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    (Original post by ForAllOfThis)
    I guess the question has more implications for christian and catholic theology then. I know a lot less about Hinduism.

    Do you know how it is told that there are multiple universes in Hinduism? Is it told that they are similar to our universes or completely different? The theory itself suggests that there would be both; I'm just wondering how accurate the expression of that belief would be in hinduism? If it's not very accurate there would still be implications.
    They are mentioned several times in scriptue, some include:

    Lord Śiva said: My dear son, I, Lord Brahmā and the other demigods, who rotate within this universe under the misconception of our greatness, cannot exhibit any power to compete with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for innumerable universes and their inhabitants come into existence and are annihilated by the simple direction of the Lord." (Bhagavata Purana 9.4.56)

    Every universe is covered by seven layers — earth, water, fire, air, sky, the total energy and false ego — each ten times greater than the previous one. There are innumerable universes besides this one, and although they are unlimitedly large, they move about like atoms in You. Therefore You are called unlimited (Bhagavata Purana 6.16.37)

    Because You are unlimited, neither the lords of heaven nor even You Yourself can ever reach the end of Your glories. The countless universes, each enveloped in its shell, are compelled by the wheel of time to wander within You, like particles of dust blowing about in the sky. The śrutis, following their method of eliminating everything separate from the Supreme, become successful by revealing You as their final conclusion (Bhagavata Purana 10.87.41)

    It doesn't exactly say whether other universes are like this one or not, I guess it would be difficult to compare since any new universe would be hard to comprehend compared to this one. It would be like thinking of a new colour which doesn't exist.

    However if it is quite an accurate belief which coincides with the theory and theres someone who knows a great deal more about hinduism than I do then I ask the reverse question; what if a multiple universe theory is disproved one day? What implications would that have on Hinduism?
    If it is disproved then it would go agaisnt Hinduism and its ''sciencetific'' understanding of the universe. However Hinduism deals with the infinite as a basis of reality. There are infinite demi-gods, infinite universes, infinite reincarnations, infinite cycles of creation and infinite cycles of destruction.
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    (Original post by ForAllOfThis)
    So there is a theory that there are an infinite number of universes. Lets hypothetically say that it's fact (although I know it isn't) for the sake of the question.

    If there are multiple universes what implication does that have for religous thought?

    In the case of monotheism are there an infinite number of Gods; one for each universe?

    Or is there just one God who created all of them? If this is believed then it means that people were not created uniquely by God because it would mean there were many different versions of the same person. There would be many different versions of important religous figures as well (e.g. Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed etc.) and surely this would have it's own implications on religous thought too.

    What are peoples thoughts on this?
    As far as any true monotheistic belief goes, there is only one God, regardless of the number of universes there might be.

    Although - just because there might be more than one universe, why should this mean there's more than one Jesus, or Muhammad etc.?
    There is more than one house on the road I live on. But that doesn't mean there's another version of me in the next house!
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    As far as any true monotheistic belief goes, there is only one God, regardless of the number of universes there might be.

    Although - just because there might be more than one universe, why should this mean there's more than one Jesus, or Muhammad etc.?
    There is more than one house on the road I live on. But that doesn't mean there's another version of me in the next house!
    The devils in the detail so to speak. The theory predicts that as time moves on more unvierses are created. So for everything that doesn't happen in this unvierse happens in another. It actually goes to atomic level and suggests that for when a single electron moves one way in our universe but with it moving in a particular direction; another universe is created in which it moves a different direction.

    This means there would be a point in time where Jesus, Muhammed etc are created and then there would have to be an infinte number of them just for the way in which the many many electrons move in their brains.

    The theory also predicts that in equally many universes neither Jesus or Muhammed was born. This obviously has it's own implications too (especially for christianity) because would it mean that god abandoned those universes?
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    I reckon it would probably be one God per universe. To be fair, Genesis only talks of the creation of this Universe, so it could be postulated that each universe has its own version of that text with its own God creating it.

    I love discussing multiverses. :teehee:
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    (Original post by ForAllOfThis)
    The devils in the detail so to speak. The theory predicts that as time moves on more unvierses are created. So for everything that doesn't happen in this unvierse happens in another. It actually goes to atomic level and suggests that for when a single electron moves one way in our universe but with it moving in a particular direction; another universe is created in which it moves a different direction.

    This means there would be a point in time where Jesus, Muhammed etc are created and then there would have to be an infinte number of them just for the way in which the many many electrons move in their brains.

    The theory also predicts that in equally many universes neither Jesus or Muhammed was born. This obviously has it's own implications too (especially for christianity) because would it mean that god abandoned those universes?
    Some theory may predict certain things, but I don't really see why any of these things are a necessary result of the existence of multiple universes.

    For example, rather than there being an infinite number of universes, there might just be two, or three. Or, there might be an infinite number of universes, all of which are identical. Or there might be only one universe with humans in it, with all the rest of them lifeless.

    Sure, the situation you describe could be correct. But then it could easily be incorrect too. The assumption that multiple universes exist doesn't necessarily imply the existence of an infinite number of Muhammads etc.
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    In Islamic perspective

    In Islam, there are incorporeal beings called Jinns that interact ad reside within a different dimension from our tradition dimension. We cannot see, feel, hear or sense them in any way, in the Quran I think they are described of being made of smokeless flame (very ambiguous, but poetic) Personally as scientic mind, I liken it to plasma, produced by nuclear fusion. But then as a human, I am relatively stupid.

    ''According to the Quran, we cannot see nor collide with Jinn but they have weight:

    [Quran 55.31] We [GOD] will settle your affair, both you of weight (man and jinn)

    The Jinn have weight means that we can detect their gravity and they can detect our gravity. So according to the Quran we cannot see the Jinn nor collide with them but we can detect their gravity.

    Just as the Jinn is of different type that we cannot see nor collide with but we can detect their gravity, there are six other Heavens that we cannot see nor collide with either but we can detect their gravity, superimposed above the visible one:


    [Quran 41.12] So [Allah] decreed them as seven heavens (one above the other) in two days and revealed to each heaven its orders. And We [Allah] adorned the lowest heaven with lights, and protection. Such is the decree of the Exalted; the Knowledgeable.


    According to the Quran, only the lowest heaven has visible light. This means that this Dark Matter exists in the six Heavens superimposed above the lowest one. Also according to the Quran, each of these remaining six Heavens is of a different type and each has its own planets like Earth:

    [Quran 65.12] Allah is the one who created seven Heavens and from Earth like them (of corresponding type); [Allah’s] command descends among them so that you may know that Allah is capable of anything and that Allah knows everything.

    Earth is not a unique planet in Islam. Other planets like Earth do exist throughout the other six Heavens. It is just that we cannot see them nor collide with them but we can detect their gravity.

    General relativity predicted gravitational lensing, that is, the gravitational field generated by a galaxy causes the light passing through it to bend (change direction). Dark Matter does not emit any light but scientists can still map its location by using gravitational lensing, that is, by detecting where light is bending in places where it shouldn't. In the above image and video light gets bent by invisible dark matter in places where it shouldn't.

    Muslims say that this is how God challenges nonbelievers to detect the remaining six superimposed Heavens:

    [Quran 67.3-4] [Allah] is the one who created seven superimposed Heavens. You do not see variations in the formations of the Compassionate, so redirect your sight, do you see any creation? Then redirect your sight again, your vision returns to you in defeat and regret.''


    Courtesy of Raef Fanous.

    So all in all, In Islamic theology there is only one universe, but this Universe has several facets (dimensions). But these dimensions are vaastly different from the other.
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    (Original post by ForAllOfThis)
    So there is a theory that there are an infinite number of universes. Lets hypothetically say that it's fact (although I know it isn't) for the sake of the question.

    If there are multiple universes what implication does that have for religous thought?

    In the case of monotheism are there an infinite number of Gods; one for each universe?

    Or is there just one God who created all of them? If this is believed then it means that people were not created uniquely by God because it would mean there were many different versions of the same person. There would be many different versions of important religous figures as well (e.g. Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed etc.) and surely this would have it's own implications on religous thought too.

    What are peoples thoughts on this?
    If there are an infinite number of Gods, then it wouldn't be monotheism.

    I wouldn't have a problem with other universes. Traditional Christianity has accepted the existence of animals, angels and all sorts without worry.
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    (Original post by Calumcalum)
    If there are an infinite number of Gods, then it wouldn't be monotheism.

    I wouldn't have a problem with other universes. Traditional Christianity has accepted the existence of animals, angels and all sorts without worry.
    What about the existence of more than one Jesus? How does christianity explan that?
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Some theory may predict certain things, but I don't really see why any of these things are a necessary result of the existence of multiple universes.

    For example, rather than there being an infinite number of universes, there might just be two, or three. Or, there might be an infinite number of universes, all of which are identical. Or there might be only one universe with humans in it, with all the rest of them lifeless.

    Sure, the situation you describe could be correct. But then it could easily be incorrect too. The assumption that multiple universes exist doesn't necessarily imply the existence of an infinite number of Muhammads etc.
    Actually the theory doesn't allow for that. Like I said a universe is created for all of the possibilities that a single electron can move. Once you take into account multiple electrons it equates to an infinite number of universes existing not just two or three. The rest of them can't be lifeless because as I explained, right now more universes are being created from ours alone.

    The theory suggests that each moment in the present; if you take all of the elctrons in the world and all of the possible ways that those electrons can move then you have the amount of universes that should be created. This means that theres definitely human life and possibly extra-terrestial life in other universes. In some of them earth will not exist as well.

    This is why the amount of universes is expressed as infinity; there are simple too many to calculate. For every decision a person makes they make the opposite decision with opposite consequences in "another universe".
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    (Original post by ForAllOfThis)
    Like I said a universe is created for all of the possibilities that a single electron can move.
    Why should a new universe be created for all the possibilities that a single electron can move? It's all well and good to come up with a theory which states this - but why should it be true? What makes it so impossible to have multiple universes, but not a new universe for all of the possibilities that an electron can move?

    Just because we (assume that) multiple universes exist, it doesn't automatically mean this theory is true, just because it also happens to involve multiple universes.

    In any case, which theory in particular are you talking about? Do you have some kind of reference for it?
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Why should a new universe be created for all the possibilities that a single electron can move? It's all well and good to come up with a theory which states this - but why should it be true? What makes it so impossible to have multiple universes, but not a new universe for all of the possibilities that an electron can move?

    Just because we (assume that) multiple universes exist, it doesn't automatically mean this theory is true, just because it also happens to involve multiple universes.

    In any case, which theory in particular are you talking about? Do you have some kind of reference for it?
    I think the OP was badly phrased. If you're just going to say "yeah well the other universes could have nothing to do with ours" then it's not interesting discussion. The OP should have specified the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Why should a new universe be created for all the possibilities that a single electron can move? It's all well and good to come up with a theory which states this - but why should it be true? What makes it so impossible to have multiple universes, but not a new universe for all of the possibilities that an electron can move?

    Just because we (assume that) multiple universes exist, it doesn't automatically mean this theory is true, just because it also happens to involve multiple universes.

    In any case, which theory in particular are you talking about? Do you have some kind of reference for it?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

    "In layman's terms, there is a very large—perhaps infinite—number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but didn't, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes."

    I'm not stating it as fact; I'm asking for a religous perspective and abit of a debate on the implications of this theory for religion if it became fact (e.g. was proved tomorrow).

    Edit: SsEe is correct. I did badly phrase the theory.

    Further still it means that for every decision we make a seperate universe must be created so that all choices can be chosen. This means that the amount of universes would always be increasing. It should also mean that there were many versions of relgious figures that made different choices to the religous figures in our universe.
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    (Original post by ForAllOfThis)
    What about the existence of more than one Jesus? How does christianity explan that?
    What do you mean by a Jesus? Someone called Jesus, or God incarnate as a human, or... ?
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    (Original post by Calumcalum)
    What do you mean by a Jesus? Someone called Jesus, or God incarnate as a human, or... ?
    God incarnate to christians. Given that these multiple universes exist at the same time it would have to mean that there were multiple gods to create multiple god incarnates. Or at least one god per universe right?
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    (Original post by ForAllOfThis)
    God incarnate to christians. Given that these multiple universes exist at the same time it would have to mean that there were multiple gods to create multiple god incarnates. Or at least one god per universe right?
    It's not clear that you would need multiple Gods to create multiple God incarnates. The doctrine of the incarnation is that the second person of the Trinity (in one God) took on a human nature in addition to his divine nature. It seems perfectly plausible that, if God wanted to become incarnate again, he could take on a different human nature or whatever.
    It's also not clear that he would have to become incarnate again in any case - why would he?
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    (Original post by Calumcalum)
    It's also not clear that he would have to become incarnate again in any case - why would he?
    That universe would be without a god incarnate; arguably then without a god? What would make our universe so special to have a god and not the others?

    Also when Jesus came into reality; everytime a decision was made that universe would split into at least two universes; one where Jesus made one decision and another where Jesus made the other. Thsi means if the theory was correct at some point in time there would have to be more than one Jesus in existence (across more than one universe). There would also be universes where Jesus wasn't born so then it comes back to answering the question why is our universe so important?

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