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thejonsmith
Then what are your reasons for becoming a vegetarian in the first place, if you "want" to be one - why?


because i like animals and id rather see them running around instead of on my plate.
that might seem a bit odd since i used to eat fish, but then meat eaters do that too. some eat red meat but not white. surely to a meat eater or vegetarian hater, then all meat is meat? :confused:
all in all, i can eat what i want, when i want :cool:
Reply 81
thejonsmith
Yeah, I realise what you're saying, it's just that with the world's population increasing faster than people turning to vegetarianism, and arguably, with the increasing obesity stats and sales from food outlets that use meat, the difference will be infintessimal if existent. And it's more likely it'll do nothing because of the aforementioned increasing factors

I'm interested by your last point though - I understand those that are raised as vegetarians, or stop because they want to save an animal's life/animal's lives, but what other reasons do you think people have? Would you say there are other reasons for becoming a vegetarian?


I'm a vegetarian because I don't like the way we package and stick big "sale" stickers on the dead animals - feel a bit humiliated for them
and I think you can't be against animal cruelty/an animal lover and still eat them
I know people who get creeped out by meat
or just don't like it/the texture
Reply 82
missygeorgia
Excuse me? It was clearly you jumping down my throat, actually, you were incredibly rude, and I definitely wasn't. You responded by calling my argument 'ridiculous' and being sarcastic, all I did was point out that you didn't understand my argument. You're the one being rude, and if you don't turn down the aggression I'm not going to engage in debate with you.


This was your reply to me saying that if people stopped eating meat someone else would eat it anyway;

"So if the government started farming, killing and eating humans, would you be ok with that, and eat human flesh? Because if you didn't, someone else would anyway?"

I'd call replying with a two sentence argument based on an entirely hypothetical argument jumping down my throat as you ignored the rest of the post entirely and sounded sarcastic

I apologise if I was hostile in response, but a post that picks up on one detail of something I wrote and uses wording to suggest sarcasm - ie "you'd be ok with that?" suggests, to me at least, someone being facetious and dismissing everything I was saying out of hand, rather than someone who wanted an actual debate.


missygeorgia
I'm not denying that someone else will eat the meat. I'm saying that if you believe eating meat is immoral, that shouldn't and doesn't make a difference. If someone decided to kill a room full of people, I wouldn't say 'oh well, they're going to die anyway so I might as well join in with the killing'. You say 'taking the moral highground' as if acting morally is useless if you're the only one doing it. Actually, I'm going to do what I think is right whether I'm the only one or not.


I just don't understand the attachment of people in modern day society to the rights of animals, over and above, in many instances, the rights of other human beings.

Obviously, not eating meat doesn't mean you champion animal rights above all else, it's more that the value that seems to be placed upon the right of a cow, chicken etc to a quality of life is of more concern to many than the plight of human children in poorer countries in the world, and in my opinion this focus is wrong.

It's fair enough if you actively promote the rights of human beings to equality etc as well, I just believe this is a more important concern to myself and our society - that none of us need live in poverty or depravation, than whether an animal is killed to be eaten


missygeorgia
Sorry, why does it make it wrong if it's the same species as us? That doesn't make sense.


It matters enormously. An animal may be a "sentient being" but it's a sentient being with no relation to humanity whatsoever, in the case of animals such as cows, chickens etc

The food chain is important; I find it hard to campaign for the right of an animal to live that I would in any other circumstance call "dinner". The right to not suffer, certainly. The right to life though - it seems not. Whether that is a conditioning from society that makes me feel it's ok for an animal to die if it's to be eaten by a human, I'm not sure. The only justification I have for this view is that it's intrinsic to humans as part of their nature, and that I'd rather a cow died if it meant several children in deprivation and poverty could eat and live - I place a far greater weight on human life


missygeorgia
How is it pointless? If someone hates the thought of animals being killed for meat, if the thought of it makes them sick and if they don't want to fund that industry then of course it has a 'point', and animal rights organisations are irrelevent.


It just seems that if you're trying to safeguard the rights of animals to not suffer before being killed, or to not be killed entirely, then organisations such as P.E.T.A can actually make a difference with your support

While I understand that not eating meat allows you to feel that you're helping the cause of vegetarianism and living according to your own conscience by not eating the animal, it doesn't go wider than you're own feeling of morality and the domino effect resulting from you yourself

To try and clarify that - if you don't eat meat, then let's say an animal a week is saved. You feel you have done what is right by your conscience in not eating meat. However, if you help an animal right's group, you could campaign to stop many animals being killed or mistreated

Obviously you can do both together, it's just that many people I have known you are vegetarians take their stance on not eating animals to be enough to help their cause (ie the reason they stopped eating animals themselves) but do not take it any further than their own contribution (ie not eating meat themselves)
Reply 83
It's almost worse to eat fish because of over fishing!
Reply 84
Funkymonkey21
because i like animals and id rather see them running around instead of on my plate.
that might seem a bit odd since i used to eat fish, but then meat eaters do that too. some eat red meat but not white. surely to a meat eater or vegetarian hater, then all meat is meat? :confused:
all in all, i can eat what i want, when i want :cool:


I'm not trying to question your right to abstain from eating meat, more that I wonder what causes people to feel this way in the first place. For the most part it's not wanting an animal to be killed or that they've been raised that way, but some people argue differently

And I find it hard to see how you can champion the life of animals such as cows, chickens, turkeys and sheep not to become food, yet be happy to eat a fish. A fish after all has the same feelings and nervous system.

Surely it's, by definition, an all or nothing stance?
As in - you're either against eating animals or you're not
Reply 85
Vegetarianism is a personal choice, so why should anyone have to justify what they do and don't eat? Eat what you want and be done with it...
Reply 86
I never get this because fish die in a much worse way - cows, pigs etc and shocked unconscious before they're killed, fish are left to suffocate or are battered to death, if it's an ethical thing, I would have though it'd be worse to eat fish...
but then I'm not a vegetarian....
Reply 87
i much prefer the term "vegaquarians"
way more catchy than pescetarian...
Reply 88
thejonsmith
I don't get vegetarianism - full stop.

So, the animal doesn't get eaten by you.

It gets eaten by someone else.

Also, where's the line between animals being sentient beings and becoming a fruitarian - where fruit and vegetables are living things, so pulling them up is "murdering" them.

If people object to the conditions the animals live in - there are organisations such as P.E.T.A who campaign for animal rights etc. If an animal isn't mistreated before it's death, I don't see what's so "wrong" about carnivorism.

Plus, I agree, you cannot be a pescetarian and still maintain your argument that eating an animal is morally wrong, because they're sentient beings. A fish has just as much right to be alive as a cow. We're not talking about eating intelligent animals such as dolphins either; cows, chickens and fish are all fairly low on the IQ scale. Pigs, however, are apparently moderately intelligent.


the whole 'It gets eaten by someone else.' line is an easy way out. The less demand there is, the less is supplied. If I don't eat a cow, the person next to me isn't going to eat my share. It's like people not bothering to recycle because they don't think that what they do has any effect on the greater scheme of things - but it has to start somewhere.


As to the 'Also, where's the line between animals being sentient beings and becoming a fruitarian - where fruit and vegetables are living things, so pulling them up is "murdering" them. ', well I think for me it's just a matter of having to draw the line somewhere. I don't eat meat, and I'm completely fine with not doing so but I wouldn't risk my happiness (yes food makes me happy), for plants.

And I agree with the last paragraph:smile:
Reply 89
chubbychops:)
I'm a vegetablarian, but I eat fish and chicken. People ridicule me for it all the time, but I wouldn't eat it if I had the choice. My doctor has said that I need to eat meat, and white meat seems so much further than actual meat than red meat does, so I don't feel like I'm going to be sick when I'm eating it. If I didn't have it I'd become anemic again. :/

You are not a vegetarian. What you mean is that you wish you were a vegetarian.

Falling Winter Fairy
Some people say that fish only have a 3sec memory spawn or something, so I guess they won't remember having a terrible life in a fish farm or much of the pain.

I don't think the pig I had for lunch on wednesday remembers the pain either.
Reply 90
rain4475
the whole 'It gets eaten by someone else.' line is an easy way out. The less demand there is, the less is supplied. If I don't eat a cow, the person next to me isn't going to eat my share. It's like people not bothering to recycle because they don't think that what they do has any effect on the greater scheme of things - but it has to start somewhere.



It's not so much that I feel if I don't eat meat, someone else will continue to so the stand is pointless, it's just that the demand for meat will be great as long as people continue to want to eat meat, while the population of the world continues to increase etc, so people turning to vegetarianism and thus "saving an animal" is actually likely to be more of an inverse proportion - the demand for meat is going up so much, that you not eating a cow won't help it.

But then you can only do what's right by your conscience, I suppose. And I believe the vegetarian, as opposed to pescatarian, stance is the right one - if you believe in the right of an animal not to be killed for food, you cannot distinguish between which animal gets to live (and if you feel you can, I'd like to hear a reason, I'm genuinely interested - for anyone else reading this!)

As I say though, animal right's organisations, or groups campaigning against the harming or killing of animals for the food trade are also something worth joining if animal rights, and the right not to be eaten, interest you - that way you're doing more than acting according to the dictates of your conscience; you may help turn enough people to vegetarianism that it helps save animal's lives
I do find this all rather silly, bottom line is all these animals have a nervous system, so there should be some consistency in peoples' views. I eat meat but I am just thinking of people who are pescetarians as opposed to vegetarians.
Reply 92
Falling Winter Fairy
Some people say that fish only have a 3sec memory spawn or something, so I guess they won't remember having a terrible life in a fish farm or much of the pain.


That's only goldfish.

And I assume we aren't talking about goldfish amongst the fish that people would consider part of a diet?

Also, this research;

"The findings add to a growing body of evidence that fish are much more sentient and intelligent than had generally been assumed.

Recent research has suggested that fish feel pain when they are caught on a hook, can be manipulative and socially aware, have long memories and are able to recognise their shoal-mates."

From this article;
http://nootropics.com/intelligence/smartfish.html
Reply 93
Potential Trigger
I do find this all rather silly, bottom line is all these animals have a nervous system, so there should be some consistency in peoples' views. I eat meat but I am just thinking of people who are pescetarians as opposed to vegetarians.


:yep:

This sums up my opinion - it's a paradox (contradiction in terms) to say you don't eat meat because you believe in the right of animals to live, but actually, you eat fish.

Of course, this only applies to people whose logic behind not eating meat is the right of animals to live.
'Its OK to eat fish because they don't have any feelings'- Kurt Cobain, Something in the way.
Reply 95
clementinek
I don't eat meat at all, going on 4 years now and only rarely fish. I don't ever refer to myself as a vegetarian or Pesc though. I have a long list of reasons for my diet but I don't believe I could ever justify eating fish. I am also chosing to enter a career field where I know I am going to have to go against most of what I believe in and so would feel an absolute fraud to say I'm a veggie.


Proffessional meat-eating? Explain :confused:
Reply 96
But fish are killed more cruelly! They're left to drown in air sometimes, and sometimes hit on a rock? I don't know much about it though tbh.
nolongerhearthemusic
I'm a vegetarian but I think fish are much less sentient, self-aware and able to suffer than other animals. I'd rather kill a fish than a cow.


Since my being on this site, I must say that I find that the stupidest thing I have read
Reply 98
it's all ******* retarded
i understand why some people who live with their parents (under 18 with no choice in the matter) would eat fish if its their only option to get close to vegetarianism

personally i would rather not be vegetarian than eat fish, id never win arguments supporting my views if i did!

On the topic of why would anyone be vegetarian, i am vegetarian because in the 21st century eating meat is not necessary for a healthy lifestyle, so why take another life for not reason?

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