[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by CyclopsRock)
That "if" is more or less the lynch pin of what you're saying, though, right? Of all the people I know, I haven't ever recognised a correlation between fat people and poverty. Hell, I'm a multi billionaire and I weigh absolutely loads.

Well the research on the correlations is strongest in the United States but, in my experience, its equally strong here. There are two peaks really - the very wealthy who can afford luxury and the poor who tend towards a high-fat diet for historical and socio-economic reasons. Your peak may just be the one with coins in your pocket.

E.g.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-...b_1417417.html

[misterxninja]

(Original post by Rakas21)
A rather extreme Orange Booker - Good to see (either that or you should be jumping to HMS Tory).

I personally advocate a Health Voucher system in which upto a point the state would you using private healthcare bar surgery which should always be done on the NHS. That said Moleman knows far more about health systems than me so i leave it in his capable hands.



I both agree and disagree.

I agree with the principal however not the practicality (since people would potentially die). That said, it annoys me greatly when you see stories of people losing 5 stone to get the gastric band surgery.

We should certainly stop cultural reasons being allowed, i read that 400 women had hymen replacements for religious reasons.

Unfortunately I'm of the opinion once the coalition breaks up your not so socially conservative market conservatives will come join the Liberals where the market belongs traditionally. The Clegg strategy was always to absorb Market voters who put there votes and MPs into the Conservative party. Not many young Social Conservatives knocking about of late, you will find more traditionalism in young Labour students these days than the CF.

I think there are a few open eared to me within our TSR party on what I had to say on the NHS idea and considered it somewhat. There is not much Social Democracy left in TSR Lib Dems or in our RL party, particularly in the Liberal Youth - the market has a lot of sympathy and emphasis now and the old immature policies are all but gone.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by misterxninja)
I think there are a few open eared to me within our TSR party on what I had to say on the NHS idea and considered it somewhat. There is not much Social Democracy left in TSR Lib Dems or in our RL party, particularly in the Liberal Youth - the market has a lot of sympathy and emphasis now and the old immature policies are all but gone.

I'm glad you said that. It's very much the reason why I can't really understand why Labour are courting you on here. If social democracy is dead within the Liberal Democrats then Labour should steer clear. Although I don't really get why you see social democracy as "immature"!

[Rakas21]

(Original post by misterxninja)
Unfortunately I'm of the opinion once the coalition breaks up your not so socially conservative market conservatives will come join the Liberals where the market belongs traditionally. The Clegg strategy was always to absorb Market voters who put there votes and MPs into the Conservative party. Not many young Social Conservatives knocking about of late, you will find more traditionalism in young Labour students these days than the CF.

I think there are a few open eared to me within our TSR party on what I had to say on the NHS idea and considered it somewhat. There is not much Social Democracy left in TSR Lib Dems or in our RL party, particularly in the Liberal Youth - the market has a lot of sympathy and emphasis now and the old immature policies are all but gone.

I disagree.

Largely your assumption relies on the fact of the Conservative Party being.. Conservative in social views, it is not. Rather, what we have seen is the Conservative Party become the 'market liberal party' and this will maintain itself as such, if anything the more socially Conservative members are much more likely to leave. Essentially it seems that we have adapted.

My personal opinion rather is that Labour will fade as their core vote literally dies off and the 'Orange Book' section of the Liberal Democrats will become the second party in England (thinking 2030+ here). In terms of getting rid of the former SDLP holding you back left, this coalition may have done you wonders in the long term.

Agree in regards to Youth, CF and LY in some ways are almost indistinguishable.

[misterxninja]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
I'm glad you said that. It's very much the reason why I can't really understand why Labour are courting you on here. If social democracy is dead within the Liberal Democrats then Labour should steer clear. Although I don't really get why you see social democracy as "immature"!

Its by no means dead, its just weigning and the weaker. Liberals like me put there Liberal before there Democracy. Labour also have an element compatible with us Blairites are a shade of neo-liberalism. I don't think social democracy is necessarily immature, I think a lot of the policies we ditched like a nuclear immediate disarmament were futile.

The Lib Dems are not a socialist party they aligned themselves under Charles Kennedy in such a way to try steal Labour voters and get Labour defections over Iraq and provide a decent opposition to the government. It was merely political manoeuvring, because Ashdown was quiet a hawk and contrast to Kennedy and came from a Liberal tradition.

The Lib Dems are just realigning to there natural self after being presented the opportunity to do so and with the Tories in meltdown and being ripped on the right by UKIP and left by the Lib Dems its looking bad for them and there future.

There are TSR Labour members who are Blairites still hanging on, but for the most part we are seeing Labour to Lib Dem defections based on the market: http://tristanpithers.wordpress.com/...ral-democrats/ and your also seeing defections from the Tories beginning prematurely though the mass exodus will occur once the coalition breaks down http://blueliberalism.wordpress.com/...conservatives/. All these market orientated defections just bolster and bulk out the neo-liberal element in the party. The Tories have extended and took the market as far as there party is able, they will only halt market progress now as social freedom, democratic freedom, political freedom all coincide with market freedom, they also lack a decent international modern perspective that really utilizes British foreign policy adeptly in a globalized world whereas the Liberal agenda embraced the globalized world and looks to use the new international frameworks very much so to continue to develop and push the market forward.

[Matthew_Lowson]

(Original post by misterxninja)
What you have just quoted neither contains hate nor venom, it is my alternative perception to the narrative being told for others to consider.

I would need to be a snake to have venom unfortunately I'm just a mere human being, I know nothing of venom perhaps you could enlighten me as its clearly something your familiar with.

I rest my case!

(Original post by Morgsie)
FAO

[misterxninja]

(Original post by Rakas21)
I disagree.

Largely your assumption relies on the fact of the Conservative Party being.. Conservative in social views, it is not. Rather, what we have seen is the Conservative Party become the 'market liberal party' and this will maintain itself as such, if anything the more socially Conservative members are much more likely to leave. Essentially it seems that we have adapted.

My personal opinion rather is that Labour will fade as their core vote literally dies off and the 'Orange Book' section of the Liberal Democrats will become the second party in England (thinking 2030+ here). In terms of getting rid of the former SDLP holding you back left, this coalition may have done you wonders in the long term.

Agree in regards to Youth, CF and LY in some ways are almost indistinguishable.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-snooping.html Social conservatism in action, need I remind you of abortion and Nadine Dorries...

The thing is Rakas its already happening sorry but read above post to Adorno. The Clegg strategy is starting to rear itself - Tories are currently in meltdown all over the place. Leeds CF leadership all just defected UKIP... Your party is in disarray and its all what Clegg knew would happen with the Tories going into coalition with us - it was never going to rip the Lib Dems apart but the Tories all along.

[misterxninja]

(Original post by Matthew_Lowson)
I rest my case!

You never had a case to start with... Quoting something and declaring there was hate and venom in it, I don't see anyone else seeing hate or venom in what you quoted as being hate and venom.

Sit down Lowson.

[Matthew_Lowson]

(Original post by misterxninja)
You never had a case to start with... Quoting something and declaring there was hate and venom in it, I don't see anyone else seeing hate or venom in what you quoted as being hate and venom.

Sit down Lowson.

Post 981 and 983.

[Rakas21]

(Original post by misterxninja)
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-snooping.html Social conservatism in action, need I remind you of abortion and Nadine Dorries...

The thing is Rakas its already happening sorry but read above post to Adorno. The Clegg strategy is starting to rear itself - Tories are currently in meltdown all over the place. Leeds CF leadership all just defected UKIP... Your party is in disarray and its all what Clegg knew would happen with the Tories going into coalition with us - it was never going to rip the Lib Dems apart but the Tories all along.

She is an exception, i can assure you.

Two members of the Leeds CF leadership defected, not all. I certainly do not class Ukip as a long term threat and the Liberal Democrats will not be a real threat for second until 2025.

I am not saying that Clegg will not succeed in rebranding the party in the eyes of the electorate or that you will not stay to the right in the future, simply that you are not yet a credible threat to the Tories and will not be until 2025 election at the earliest.

[misterxninja]

(Original post by Matthew_Lowson)
Post 981 and 983.

These posts are an explanation of what happened and why our relations regressed because of you. Meanwhile, a robust defence was made of my party and counter criticism of yours after we was attacked on our own thread - I felt it was a little rich of Toronto when he has members like you who cause bad blood with pretty much everyone in the MHoC to come here. Its obvious you have been winding Toronto up and pulling the strings to cause arguments, we all got along with Toronto until you got into a position in UKIP and had his ear.

I'm not sat on your thread causing crap for you, I don't care. Your the antagonist and anyone can see that by coming on here and running your mouth off and being ignored by everyone who thinks your a bumbling idiot. You have called for our leader to stand down, you PM'ed him abuse and threats to stand down - you have no place to do that. You said in rough terms: 'As a previous leader of the Lib Dems I know when it's time to step down, Morgsie you need to step down'

Your just upset that we ousted you from our party after voting you out of leadership and you continued to be a nuisance. We think Morgsie is a capable leader unlike you, who was about to be VONC and then got an internal VONC from his own party, then continued to be a hinderer until you got ousted out of our party completely, because your a power monger who lives off titles on the TSR MHoC. Morgsie is a nice genuine guy we all like him and we all support him - so leave us and our party alone and get off our thread with your constant ignored antagonisms, unless you have a sensible actual question to Ask A Liberal Democrat about policy or ideology, not personal attacks on our members.

If there is any case to be made its one against you and your abusive nature and general disliked nature in the MHoC and conduct that has turned mere scratches into gaping wounds. You seem to have a hand in all the disunity in the MHoC at the moment. All my statements are fair and evidenced. Now sit the hell down or carry on digging your own grave like you did last time.

[misterxninja]

(Original post by Rakas21)
She is an exception, i can assure you.

Two members of the Leeds CF leadership defected, not all. I certainly do not class Ukip as a long term threat and the Liberal Democrats will not be a real threat for second until 2025.

I am not saying that Clegg will not succeed in rebranding the party in the eyes of the electorate or that you will not stay to the right in the future, simply that you are not yet a credible threat to the Tories and will not be until 2025 election at the earliest.

Perhaps, perhaps. I know the two girls who defected they had led the university party between them in Leeds CF - I enjoy good social relationships with the lot of them personal level. Having your leadership go is pretty big and pretty bad, another one is almost about to jump ship over also despite just gaining a position on Leeds CF executive.

It is happening and trending everywhere, your getting squashed on the right and the left. Time will tell won't it, if we take some MP's of yours in the coalition breakup then that is a threat in itself and a likelihood, some of your ministers have been quoted as saying they prefer to work with the Lib Dems than other members on there backbenches - big cause big concern big threat. Ignore it until you end up with the Lib Dems also Rakas, as you find everyone in your party you agreed with made the jump.

Too think some of you Tories were actually expecting Lib Dems to defect like Clegg and David Laws and Danny Alexander. Oh how the tables have turned, Clegg truly is a political mastermind you will see - there as Liberal as a good chunk of your market MP's are and starting to realise after working with them.

[toronto353]

(Original post by misterxninja)
These posts are an explanation of what happened and why our relations regressed because of you. Meanwhile, a robust defence was made of my party and counter criticism of yours after we was attacked on our own thread - I felt it was a little rich of Toronto when he has members like you who cause bad blood with pretty much everyone in the MHoC to come here. Its obvious you have been winding Toronto up and pulling the strings to cause arguments, we all got along with Toronto until you got into a position in UKIP and had his ear.

I'm not sat on your thread causing crap for you, I don't care. Your the antagonist and anyone can see that by coming on here and running your mouth off and being ignored by everyone who thinks your a bumbling idiot. You have called for our leader to stand down, you PM'ed him abuse and threats to stand down - you have no place to do that. You said in rough terms: 'As a previous leader of the Lib Dems I know when it's time to step down, Morgsie you need to step down'

Your just upset that we ousted you from our party after voting you out of leadership and you continued to be a nuisance. We think Morgsie is a capable leader unlike you, who was about to be VONC and then got an internal VONC from his own party, then continued to be a hinderer until you got ousted out of our party completely, because your a power monger who lives off titles on the TSR MHoC. Morgsie is a nice genuine guy we all like him and we all support him - so leave us and our party alone and get off our thread with your constant ignored antagonisms, unless you have a sensible actual question to Ask A Liberal Democrat about policy or ideology, not personal attacks on our members.

If there is any case to be made its one against you and your abusive nature and general disliked nature in the MHoC and conduct that has turned mere scratches into gaping wounds. You seem to have a hand in all the disunity in the MHoC at the moment. All my statements are fair and evidenced. Now sit the hell down or carry on digging your own grave like you did last time.

I'm not getting involved, but would like you to be careful at this stage. Matthew has been told that any views on this matter are not the views of the party so, while I don't care who argues with whom, could you avoid dragging UKIP into this personal argument? Thanks.

[Matthew_Lowson]

(Original post by misterxninja)
These posts are an explanation of what happened and why our relations regressed because of you. Meanwhile, a robust defence was made of my party and counter criticism of yours after we was attacked on our own thread - I felt it was a little rich of Toronto when he has members like you who cause bad blood with pretty much everyone in the MHoC to come here. Its obvious you have been winding Toronto up and pulling the strings to cause arguments, we all got along with Toronto until you got into a position in UKIP and had his ear.

I'm not sat on your thread causing crap for you, I don't care. Your the antagonist and anyone can see that by coming on here and running your mouth off and being ignored by everyone who thinks your a bumbling idiot. You have called for our leader to stand down, you PM'ed him abuse and threats to stand down - you have no place to do that. You said in rough terms: 'As a previous leader of the Lib Dems I know when it's time to step down, Morgsie you need to step down'

Your just upset that we ousted you from our party after voting you out of leadership and you continued to be a nuisance. We think Morgsie is a capable leader unlike you, who was about to be VONC and then got an internal VONC from his own party, then continued to be a hinderer until you got ousted out of our party completely, because your a power monger who lives off titles on the TSR MHoC. Morgsie is a nice genuine guy we all like him and we all support him - so leave us and our party alone and get off our thread with your constant ignored antagonisms, unless you have a sensible actual question to Ask A Liberal Democrat about policy or ideology, not personal attacks on our members.

If there is any case to be made its one against you and your abusive nature and general disliked nature in the MHoC and conduct that has turned mere scratches into gaping wounds. You seem to have a hand in all the disunity in the MHoC at the moment. All my statements are fair and evidenced. Now sit the hell down or carry on digging your own grave like you did last time.

This has nothing to do with August 2010 - and personally surprised you'd be the one to make reference to it anyway.

I'm not taking from insults from you, and I certainly made no threat towards Morgsie, and I have the PM that I sent to him which would prove that.

My question anyway is this, how would you what was said? As you were not any part of the intended recipient.

[misterxninja]

(Original post by toronto353)
I'm not getting involved, but would like you to be careful at this stage. Matthew has been told that any views on this matter are not the views of the party so, while I don't care who argues with whom, could you avoid dragging UKIP into this personal argument? Thanks.

Re-read what has been said, UKIP are not dragged into it. We have resolved things with UKIP to my knowledge and all happy to pick back up relations with you and your party Toronto, just with the exclusion of this individual who is causing you and your party hell as he continues to antagonize us in our own thread and ask ridiculous questions about when will we oust our leader.

You was upset at the time, so was we we sorted it and resolved it. Lowson carries on its that simple Lowson is acting alone - we can see this so can you, so can everyone. Your no longer on our thread antagonizing and apologized, likewise I'm sorry to you for prior posts. In fact we are enjoying a little health debate here, please input the UKIP slant on this

I think we have come to understand where the issues have been and look forward to amicable relations at the very least.

[toronto353]

(Original post by misterxninja)
Re-read what has been said, UKIP are not dragged into it. We have resolved things with UKIP to my knowledge and all happy to pick back up relations with you and your party Toronto, just with the exclusion of this individual who is causing you and your party hell as he continues to antagonize us in our own thread and ask ridiculous questions about when will we oust our leader.

You was upset at the time, so was we we sorted it and resolved it. Lowson carries on its that simple Lowson is acting alone - we can see this so can you, so can everyone. Your no longer on our thread antagonizing and apologized, likewise I'm sorry to you for prior posts. In fact we are enjoying a little health debate here, please input the UKIP slant on this

I think we have come to understand where the issues have been and look forward to amicable relations at the very least.

Absolutely. It was just when you mentioned Matthew and said 'your party'. I just want it to be completely clear that this isn't a party view, but a personal view expressed. I'm looking forward to renewing Lib Dem - UKIP relations. I've been in touch with Morgsie and relations are improving.

[misterxninja]

(Original post by Matthew_Lowson)
This has nothing to do with August 2010 - and personally surprised you'd be the one to make reference to it anyway.

I'm not taking from insults from you, and I certainly made no threat towards Morgsie, and I have the PM that I sent to him which would prove that.

My question anyway is this, how would you what was said? As you were not any part of the intended recipient.

It is a subtle threat in the PM, withdrawing support for his bill unless he stands down is what you have said. If you want to post it up for the rest of the world to see be my guest -so they can see why it is deemed a threat. If you PM to the TSR Lib Dems, the Lib Dems share it with there own leadership team - don't like it don't PM, this is how we operate internally as a team.

The evidence is there, push it if you wish and get burnt, or sit down get off the thread and go away. You might want to take the soap with you for that box you keep standing on because there ain't no crowd to preach to.

Save yourself another sore bum when the box gets kicked from beneath your feet again, simply walk away as you will lose because you have no case and now we do - which we will not press unless you keep provoking us to respond with your ineptitude when it comes to politics.

[misterxninja]

(Original post by toronto353)
Absolutely. It was just when you mentioned Matthew and said 'your party'. I just want it to be completely clear that this isn't a party view, but a personal view expressed. I'm looking forward to renewing Lib Dem - UKIP relations. I've been in touch with Morgsie and relations are improving.

My humble apologies, I was talking pre-resolution of our parties issues.

*Edit: talking in past tense other words, beg my pardon.

[toronto353]

(Original post by misterxninja)
My humble apologies, I was talking pre-resolution of our parties issues.

I think we're getting there. Time's a great healer, but as I say, I've been in touch with the Lib Dem leadership team to rebuild those links and it is a very positive atmosphere at the moment.

[Matthew_Lowson]

I said I would I have review my position in respect of my colleagues given my position within the government.


I would say your loyalty to Morgsie is rather commendable anyway, because it's clear what you're actually hoping for.