[TheHansa]

How do the strict policies on immigration fit in with the libertarian ethos?

Would you have bailed out the banks?

[toronto353]

(Original post by stanlas)
Do you honestly believe that if we leave the EU the other countries will be nice to us and let us keep a free trade deal? They're more likely to just ignore us completely.

The EU is as dependent on our trade as we are on their's. Would they really scupper European economies further by not establishing a free trade deal? No, it would be ridiculous to do so.

(Original post by Moleman1996)
What's your opinion on Nigel Farage?

He's a great orator and he is working to try to achieve the best for Britain. Say what you like about him, but he sticks to his principles.

[stanlas]

(Original post by toronto353)
The EU is as dependent on our trade as we are on their's.

Not really. 57% of our exports go the the EU, and 55% of our imports come from it. We are dependent on it. The EU, on the other hand, is not dependent on the UK. Take Germany for example; less than 5% of its exports go to the UK. Its the EU which has the negotiating power.

[stanlas]

Also, the EU pretty much works on the basis that member states contribute to the collective budget, and in return they get the benefits from being part of a free trade area.

Now, imagine that the UK under UKIP leaves the EU and stops paying, but wants to remain in the free trade area. If EU leaders agree, then it would essentially mark the end of the EU; it would mean that a country can leave the EU and still get the benefits, which would lead to a mass exodus of countries from the EU. Faced with that prospect, I struggle to see why EU leaders would grant the UK's request

[Morgsie]

(Original post by stanlas)
Also, the EU pretty much works on the basis that member states contribute to the collective budget, and in return they get the benefits from being part of a free trade area.

Now, imagine that the UK under UKIP leaves the EU and stops paying, but wants to remain in the free trade area. If EU leaders agree, then it would essentially mark the end of the EU; it would mean that a country can leave the EU and still get the benefits, which would lead to a mass exodus of countries from the EU. Faced with that prospect, I struggle to see why EU leaders would grant the UK's request

Since Lisbon there is a withdrawal clause, if a State wants to withdraw then it must inform the EU. It would be negotiated and the Council decides by QMV after the European Parliament consented.

Article 50 TEU

[stanlas]

(Original post by Morgsie)
Since Lisbon there is a withdrawal clause, if a State wants to withdraw then it must inform the EU. It would be negotiated and the Council decides by QMV after the European Parliament consented.

Article 50 TEU

I'm thankful for the extra level of detail, though I should stress that this makes no difference to my previous argument. Letting Brtiain retain a free trade agreement without paying for it would be disastrous for the EU.

Its time UKIP admitted it: Leaving the EU = leaving the free trade area = negative effect on almost 60% of our imports and exports. No more decieving voters about this 'negotiating free trade deals with the EU.'

[toronto353]

(Original post by stanlas)
Not really. 57% of our exports go the the EU, and 55% of our imports come from it. We are dependent on it. The EU, on the other hand, is not dependent on the UK. Take Germany for example; less than 5% of its exports go to the UK. Its the EU which has the negotiating power.

In general though 57% of our exports go to the EU so they are dependent on us just as we are dependent on us. If we left the EU, we could establish other free trade areas and this will help to fill some of the void. I'm surprised that you've not joined the Lib Dems given how blindly pro-EU you are.

[toronto353]

(Original post by TheHansa)
How do the strict policies on immigration fit in with the libertarian ethos?

Would you have bailed out the banks?

TSR UKIP is not equivalent to RL UKIP. Bailing out the banks tricky one. We should have bailed them out, but ensured that the banks in turn lend to more people/ businesses.

[Mechie]

(Original post by stanlas)
I'm thankful for the extra level of detail, though I should stress that this makes no difference to my previous argument. Letting Brtiain retain a free trade agreement without paying for it would be disastrous for the EU.

Its time UKIP admitted it: Leaving the EU = leaving the free trade area = negative effect on almost 60% of our imports and exports. No more decieving voters about this 'negotiating free trade deals with the EU.'

Completely agree. We're also moving towards an increasingly globalised world and isolating ourselves from such a powerful ally as the EU would be a bad move. The world today is full of the politics of international relations, and we should strive to keep good relationships with the EU.

[stanlas]

(Original post by toronto353)
In general though 57% of our exports go to the EU so they are dependent on us just as we are dependent on us.

Your half-right. We are dependent on the EU- almost 60% of exports go there. I'm definitely not disputing that.
However, only about 5% of EU exports go to the UK. Therefore, the EU is not dependent on the UK. Its the EU which has the power, both economic and (as David has just pointed out) political.

[Moleman1996]

(Original post by toronto353)
The EU is as dependent on our trade as we are on their's. Would they really scupper European economies further by not establishing a free trade deal? No, it would be ridiculous to do so.



He's a great orator and he is working to try to achieve the best for Britain. Say what you like about him, but he sticks to his principles.

I like a lot of what he says but some times he just seems to go too far. Like that incident in Brussels with the Belgian guy.

[toronto353]

(Original post by davidmarsh01)
Completely agree. We're also moving towards an increasingly globalised world and isolating ourselves from such a powerful ally as the EU would be a bad move. The world today is full of the politics of international relations, and we should strive to keep good relationships with the EU.

(Original post by stanlas)
Your half-right. We are dependent on the EU- almost 60% of exports go there. I'm definitely not disputing that.
However, only about 5% of EU exports go to the UK. Therefore, the EU is not dependent on the UK. Its the EU which has the power, both economic and (as David has just pointed out) political.

The UK should not be blackmailed with economics in order to keep it in such a union. Do you see other unions like the EU which interfere as much? No. Why should the EU interfere in our lives when no other bodies interferes in other affairs? You could argue that UN does this, but the fact that it is routinely ignored makes that argument irrelevant.

[toronto353]

(Original post by Moleman1996)
I like a lot of what he says but some times he just seems to go too far. Like that incident in Brussels with the Belgian guy.

Are you talking about Van Rompuy? If so, why should any respect be shown to a 'president' when he hasn't been elected and there is no way for the people to remove him? I have no respect for Van Rompuy when I have had no say in his election.

[Morgsie]

(Original post by toronto353)
Are you talking about Van Rompuy? If so, why should any respect be shown to a 'president' when he hasn't been elected and there is no way for the people to remove him? I have no respect for Van Rompuy when I have had no say in his election.

He is voted by Heads of States/Governments by double majority. I would like to see the President of the European Council and President of the European Commission directly elected by the people of Europe.

[Mechie]

(Original post by toronto353)
Are you talking about Van Rompuy? If so, why should any respect be shown to a 'president' when he hasn't been elected and there is no way for the people to remove him? I have no respect for Van Rompuy when I have had no say in his election.

I don't mean to speak for him, but I believe he was referring to Farage and you've got the wrong end of the stick here, in your frothing at the mouth attempts to insult the EU at every possible opportunity

[toronto353]

(Original post by davidmarsh01)
I don't mean to speak for him, but I believe he was referring to Farage and you've got the wrong end of the stick here, in your frothing at the mouth attempts to insult the EU at every possible opportunity

Yes I mean that he's speaking about Farage vs. Van Rompuy. My point was that Farage wasn't wrong because what he said was correct about the lack of an opportunity to remove him. I apologise if that wasn't clear.

(Original post by Morgsie)
He is voted by Heads of States/Governments by double majority. I would like to see the President of the European Council and President of the European Commission directly elected by the people of Europe.

That is not the people electing the President. If he were elected by the people, I may actually have some respect for him (well I wouldn't, but I would be less justified in not doing so).

[Mechie]

(Original post by toronto353)
Yes I mean that he's speaking about Farage vs. Van Rompuy. My point was that Farage wasn't wrong because what he said was correct about the lack of an opportunity to remove him. I apologise if that wasn't clear.

Ah, I've got what you mean now!

Although he did go a bit too far, his speech was just full of personal jibes on van Rompuy, and in calling Belgium "pretty much a non-country" when there's nothing wrong with Belgium at all. It's perfectly acceptable that he wants to attack the position of President of the European Council (or whatever), but to make it a personal attack, with a ridiculous jibe about his country of origin, is just unacceptable.

On a lighter note, I thought his speech was brilliant from the lols point of view.

[Rakas21]

I like listening to Farage's speeches as he is a great orator however i do disagree with what he says and some of the endless doom-mongering (though some of what he says is correct).

[stanlas]

(Original post by toronto353)
The UK should not be blackmailed with economics in order to keep it in such a union.

I don't see it as blackmail. I'm just saying that the consequences of leaving will be terrible for the UK, as the EU leaders will have no choice but to ignore us and we will therfore have to leave the free trade area (and setting up a new one is not as easy as you make it seem).

(Original post by toronto353)
Do you see other unions like the EU which interfere as much? No.
.

This is what makes the EU unique in the world. It represents the most developed attempt to bring countries to work together economically and politically, yielding huge benefits to all parties involved.

(Original post by toronto353)
Why should the EU interfere in our lives when no other bodies interferes in other affairs?

The British state is a body which intervenes in my everday affairs. Why do you think that interference from one body (the British state) is legitimate, while interference from another body (the EU) isn't? I see no reason other than patriotism as to why you believe that the British state should have the right to interfere in our everyday lives, while the EU cannot.

[toronto353]

(Original post by davidmarsh01)
Ah, I've got what you mean now!

Although he did go a bit too far, his speech was just full of personal jibes on van Rompuy, and in calling Belgium "pretty much a non-country" when there's nothing wrong with Belgium at all. It's perfectly acceptable that he wants to attack the position of President of the European Council (or whatever), but to make it a personal attack, with a ridiculous jibe about his country of origin, is just unacceptable.

On a lighter note, I thought his speech was brilliant from the lols point of view.

Absolutely though he did explain later what he meant about the non-country bit. He explained that it was due to how the country was made up and that there was a reasonable risk of it splitting. His argument is that because of how it is cobbled together and how the different parts don't get on it is a non-country. To be fair to him, the whole event was farcical.

Absolutely on the lols front.

(Original post by Rakas21)
I like listening to Farage's speeches as he is a great orator however i do disagree with what he says and some of the endless doom-mongering (though some of what he says is correct).

It doesn't matter if it is doom-mongering. It's correct and that is what matters.