[Chloe0493]

(Original post by djvet)
Thank you! I will keep trying everywhere...the NPA sounds promising tho. Did you get in this year?

The NPA sounds really good. I am starting at Bristol in October where are you thinking of applying next year?

[djvet]

(Original post by Chloe0493)
The NPA sounds really good. I am starting at Bristol in October where are you thinking of applying next year?

Aww cool! Congrats errmm not sure really...I only applied to Bristol for the 6-year and Liverpool for the 5-year one. Long story but yeah those were my only two options this year.

I like RVC and Nottingham but the BMAT puts me off a bit I don't mind where I end up tbh as I'm nearly 26 so I'm in a hurry to start uni lol

[gernumblies]

(Original post by djvet)
It's probably because of that farmer that committed suicide after an animal activist revealed footage of cruelty at his pig farm....however the farmer always said that he was never aware of any cruelty....very sad...

I vaguely remember reading a mention of it in Pig and Poultry Marketing mag while I was on lambing duty. I hadn't heard much about it.

[jacko111]

Anyone know a good pig farmer in cheshire? Preferably outdoors for work experience?

[Marley13]

I'm sure there was a more informative article somewhere but I don't have the time to find it just now. http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/19/03/...oner-rules.htm

[djvet]

(Original post by jacko111)
Anyone know a good pig farmer in cheshire? Preferably outdoors for work experience?

Don't know of any but you can contact the national pig association and they should be able to help you with some contacts

[jacko111]

(Original post by djvet)
Don't know of any but you can contact the national pig association and they should be able to help you with some contacts

Excellent will do that!

[Snuffleupagus]

(Original post by djvet)
In the end, I spoke to this lady from the National Pig Association and she said she should be able to find something for me she has to verify who I am first tho through my college because they sometimes get animal activists posing as work experience students

It's probably because of that farmer that committed suicide after an animal activist revealed footage of cruelty at his pig farm....however the farmer always said that he was never aware of any cruelty....very sad...

So are you saying you think it's wrong for animal activists to expose cruelty on farms? Have you SEEN what goes on on some of them? e.g. http://tinyurl.com/7d8qmm4

If it wasn't for the undercover workers who are risking not only their safety but their emotional wellbeing (I certainly couldn't cope with that kind of work), even more animals would be experiencing a living hell than there are now.

Of course, I don't wish suicide on anyone, but I refuse to believe that farmer knew nothing of the cruelty, and anyone allowing that kind of thing to happen deserves at the very least to be exposed and shamed.

[Lucy_x]

(Original post by Snuffleupagus)
So are you saying you think it's wrong for animal activists to expose cruelty on farms? Have you SEEN what goes on on some of them? e.g. http://tinyurl.com/7d8qmm4

If it wasn't for the undercover workers who are risking not only their safety but their emotional wellbeing (I certainly couldn't cope with that kind of work), even more animals would be experiencing a living hell than there are now.

Of course, I don't wish suicide on anyone, but I refuse to believe that farmer knew nothing of the cruelty, and anyone allowing that kind of thing to happen deserves at the very least to be exposed and shamed.

I don't think she meant it that way.

I read it in more of a it's shocking that stuff like that has to happen, and that pig farms are giving their details away when there might be nothing wrong with them welfare wise, to get a person who is pretending to be a vet student and may not know he first thing about pig husbandry

Obviously all animal cruelty should be exposed and stopped, but it's a shame that in this day and age it still has to happen. Welfare should be our top priority

That's how I interpreted it anyway

[djvet]

(Original post by Snuffleupagus)
So are you saying you think it's wrong for animal activists to expose cruelty on farms? Have you SEEN what goes on on some of them? e.g. http://tinyurl.com/7d8qmm4

If it wasn't for the undercover workers who are risking not only their safety but their emotional wellbeing (I certainly couldn't cope with that kind of work), even more animals would be experiencing a living hell than there are now.

Of course, I don't wish suicide on anyone, but I refuse to believe that farmer knew nothing of the cruelty, and anyone allowing that kind of thing to happen deserves at the very least to be exposed and shamed.

I wasn't referring to that...I was trying to say that is bad that animal activists are trying to pose as people like me trying to get work experience for a genuine reason....

I wouldn't want to get into a discussion about this farmer's situation because a life was involved which I think is a very sensitive issue...sometimes is very easy to point the finger when you're just an outsider (us).

And no, I don't condone cruelty either...I have been to a placement where things were very wrong in many ways. I reported the place to the RSPA so they could get help and not a punishment, but the RSPCA wasn't interested anyways...

So in other words I'm not disagreeing with you that cruelty should be exposed and stopped but it sometimes gives a bad name to others that aren't doing anything wrong

[djvet]

(Original post by Lucy_x)
I don't think she meant it that way.

I read it in more of a it's shocking that stuff like that has to happen, and that pig farms are giving their details away when there might be nothing wrong with them welfare wise, to get a person who is pretending to be a vet student and may not know he first thing about pig husbandry

Obviously all animal cruelty should be exposed and stopped, but it's a shame that in this day and age it still has to happen. Welfare should be our top priority

That's how I interpreted it anyway

Exactly....as future vets, this is one of the thing we're gonna have to encounter....in fact cruelty comes in many shapes and forms such as allowing your pet to get morbidly obese is also cruelty

[dizzeedollee]

hmm, does anyone here live in edinburgh by any chance? i heard something today that just made me really have doubts about going to edinburgh. my mum was talking to her friend today and according to her, one of her other friend's daughter went to edinburgh university to study economics (or something finance related) but she was forced to leave because she experienced so much racism. my question is....is edinburgh really that racist? :/ i'm oriental asian and obviously i don't like to be racially abused (i have to admit, one of the reasons i didn't apply to liverpool was because i experience a lot of racism when i went to visit....and i was only out on the streets for something like 20 minutes?). the two times that i've visited edinburgh have been wonderful experiences and no one has ever made me feel uncomfortable but i'm just wondering whether i was just lucky or something :/

[jacko111]

(Original post by dizzeedollee)
hmm, does anyone here live in edinburgh by any chance? i heard something today that just made me really have doubts about going to edinburgh. my mum was talking to her friend today and according to her, one of her other friend's daughter went to edinburgh university to study economics (or something finance related) but she was forced to leave because she experienced so much racism. my question is....is edinburgh really that racist? :/ i'm oriental asian and obviously i don't like to be racially abused (i have to admit, one of the reasons i didn't apply to liverpool was because i experience a lot of racism when i went to visit....and i was only out on the streets for something like 20 minutes?). the two times that i've visited edinburgh have been wonderful experiences and no one has ever made me feel uncomfortable but i'm just wondering whether i was just lucky or something :/

You really must not give up your dreams on hearsay! If you go and experience any racism then do something about it... but dont leave!

[Marley13]

(Original post by dizzeedollee)
hmm, does anyone here live in edinburgh by any chance? i heard something today that just made me really have doubts about going to edinburgh. my mum was talking to her friend today and according to her, one of her other friend's daughter went to edinburgh university to study economics (or something finance related) but she was forced to leave because she experienced so much racism. my question is....is edinburgh really that racist? :/ i'm oriental asian and obviously i don't like to be racially abused (i have to admit, one of the reasons i didn't apply to liverpool was because i experience a lot of racism when i went to visit....and i was only out on the streets for something like 20 minutes?). the two times that i've visited edinburgh have been wonderful experiences and no one has ever made me feel uncomfortable but i'm just wondering whether i was just lucky or something :/

Nopenopenope. Although I suppose it does depend on who you encounter. I have lots of friends that are not from Britain/white and not once has anybody ever said anything to them, some of them have been there for nearly 10 years now. My high school friend is Indian and she now lives in Edinburgh and is so much happier, she used to be racially abused at high school but no one has said a bad word to her since moving, people in Edinburgh seem much more accepting. I'm aware that this is only a few people amongst millions in Edinburgh, and it's very likely that there will be some ignorant people there, but don't let it put you off. We're going to vet school (!) which is such a close and friendly community, I really can't imagine that looking a little different would illicit that behaviour.

[schizopear]

(Original post by Snuffleupagus)
So are you saying you think it's wrong for animal activists to expose cruelty on farms? Have you SEEN what goes on on some of them? e.g. http://tinyurl.com/7d8qmm4

If it wasn't for the undercover workers who are risking not only their safety but their emotional wellbeing (I certainly couldn't cope with that kind of work), even more animals would be experiencing a living hell than there are now.

Of course, I don't wish suicide on anyone, but I refuse to believe that farmer knew nothing of the cruelty, and anyone allowing that kind of thing to happen deserves at the very least to be exposed and shamed.

i'd just like to point out that the undercover worker was there for 2-3 months and at no point did they go direct to the farmer about the cruelty that they witnessed. yes, animal cruelty needs to be addressed, but there are better ways to go about it. once again i don't really believe that animal activists actually have animal welfare at heart - otherwise why would they wait six months to release the footage? they just wanted it for their next controversial campaign, not to actually improve animal welfare. anyone who actually cared would have spoken to the workers' employer in the first instance.

[hannahwah]

(Original post by dizzeedollee)
hmm, does anyone here live in edinburgh by any chance? i heard something today that just made me really have doubts about going to edinburgh. my mum was talking to her friend today and according to her, one of her other friend's daughter went to edinburgh university to study economics (or something finance related) but she was forced to leave because she experienced so much racism. my question is....is edinburgh really that racist? :/ i'm oriental asian and obviously i don't like to be racially abused (i have to admit, one of the reasons i didn't apply to liverpool was because i experience a lot of racism when i went to visit....and i was only out on the streets for something like 20 minutes?). the two times that i've visited edinburgh have been wonderful experiences and no one has ever made me feel uncomfortable but i'm just wondering whether i was just lucky or something :/

What do you mean by you experienced racism in Liverpool....were people shouting things at you ? :O If so, you should have said something..not acceptable i'm sure to Liverpool

[Snuffleupagus]

(Original post by schizopear)
i'd just like to point out that the undercover worker was there for 2-3 months and at no point did they go direct to the farmer about the cruelty that they witnessed. yes, animal cruelty needs to be addressed, but there are better ways to go about it. once again i don't really believe that animal activists actually have animal welfare at heart - otherwise why would they wait six months to release the footage? they just wanted it for their next controversial campaign, not to actually improve animal welfare. anyone who actually cared would have spoken to the workers' employer in the first instance.

Are you serious??!
You honestly think it would've made a blind bit of difference if the activist had simply approached the farmer??!! You have got to be kidding. What on earth do you think that would have achieved? Have you seen the footage? The kind of people we're talking about? People who kill pigs by swinging them by their legs and smashing their heads against a wall? You think these people would engage in constructive conversation? See the error of their ways and agree amicably to sacrifice their profits and improve welfare, because an animal advocate had asked them to? Please.

Undercover activists have to build up as strong a case as possible against the offenders, and this takes time. It's not a case of just whipping their phone out and starting to film whenever they spot something untoward - it takes time to integrate, build trust, and be allowed to see what *really* happens behind closed doors, let alone having to wait for opportunities to film unnoticed. I find the suggestion that they don't really care about animals offensive and a total nonsense. Why the hell do you think they mount campaigns in the first place?? They want to effect change. Not just on one farm - across the board. Which is why they can't just ask the farmer nicely to stop mistreating his/her animals please. Even if he/she did stop, what would that do for all the other animals being mistreated on other farms? Bugger all, that's what.

Unfortunately, when gathering evidence, they have to put the greater good ahead of that of the individual animal, which must be unimaginably distressing and painful, particularly since it's concern for animals that has driven them to be there in the first place. This is, however, the only way things will change. Just telling the public what goes on doesn't work - they have to see it with their own eyes before they'll think about changing their behaviour and, in doing so, force companies to change theirs.

With regard to the time delay, have you any idea how much work is involved in editing huge swathes of raw footage together - sorting through it all, making some kind of coherent piece? Also, sorting out legalities, preparing to release statements, footage etc. - particularly when you're locking horns with a company backed by an *extremely* powerful industry? It all takes time (it also takes money, which is pretty scarce at the moment). Anyway, why would a time delay = not having animal welfare at heart?? That's kind of reasoning is utterly spurious.

I have the utmost respect for these people, who have to face, and appear to support, things that go against everything they believe in, for months at a time. Thanks to them, evidence is gathered that has the potential to improve many more lives than I ever will as a vet.

[schizopear]

(Original post by Snuffleupagus)
Are you serious??!
You honestly think it would've made a blind bit of difference if the activist had simply approached the farmer??!! You have got to be kidding. What on earth do you think that would have achieved? Have you seen the footage? The kind of people we're talking about? People who kill pigs by swinging them by their legs and smashing their heads against a wall? You think these people would engage in constructive conversation? See the error of their ways and agree amicably to sacrifice their profits and improve welfare, because an animal advocate had asked them to? Please.

Undercover activists have to build up as strong a case as possible against the offenders, and this takes time. It's not a case of just whipping their phone out and starting to film whenever they spot something untoward - it takes time to integrate, build trust, and be allowed to see what *really* happens behind closed doors, let alone having to wait for opportunities to film unnoticed. I find the suggestion that they don't really care about animals offensive and a total nonsense. Why the hell do you think they mount campaigns in the first place?? They want to effect change. Not just on one farm - across the board. Which is why they can't just ask the farmer nicely to stop mistreating his/her animals please. Even if he/she did stop, what would that do for all the other animals being mistreated on other farms? Bugger all, that's what.

Unfortunately, when gathering evidence, they have to put the greater good ahead of that of the individual animal, which must be unimaginably distressing and painful, particularly since it's concern for animals that has driven them to be there in the first place. This is, however, the only way things will change. Just telling the public what goes on doesn't work - they have to see it with their own eyes before they'll think about changing their behaviour and, in doing so, force companies to change theirs.

With regard to the time delay, have you any idea how much work is involved in editing huge swathes of raw footage together - sorting through it all, making some kind of coherent piece? Also, sorting out legalities, preparing to release statements, footage etc. - particularly when you're locking horns with a company backed by an *extremely* powerful industry? It all takes time (it also takes money, which is pretty scarce at the moment). Anyway, why would a time delay = not having animal welfare at heart?? That's kind of reasoning is utterly spurious.

I have the utmost respect for these people, who have to face, and appear to support, things that go against everything they believe in, for months at a time. Thanks to them, evidence is gathered that has the potential to improve many more lives than I ever will as a vet.

i still stand by my original statement, that the first port of call is to notify the farmer, who claimed to be unaware of what his employees were doing, before taking things further. i'd like to remind you that a man committed suicide as a result of their campaign. if he had been told about the actions of his employees perhaps he would have addressed the issue, we won't know because he didn't have the opportunity.

i also stand by my statement that animal activists do not have animal welfare at heart. rather than seeking to work alongside the meat industry to improve animal welfare, they attempt to convert people to veganism with their animal cruelty voyeurism. they deliberately put themselves at odds with the meat industry so that they could never collaborate amicably to improve the welfare of farm animals.

these same organisations campaign against animal testing in the UK. this does not benefit animals. testing will not stop happening but will be relocated to countries that do not have the same standards of welfare that we have here, directly increasing animal suffering as a result. anyone who cared about animal welfare would be working alongside laboratories to help improve welfare and find alternatives.

animal activists seek to be controversial, they do not seek to improve animal welfare. after all, if they actually did something to improve animal welfare, what would they have to be angsty about?

[Snuffleupagus]

(Original post by schizopear)
i still stand by my original statement, that the first port of call is to notify the farmer, who claimed to be unaware of what his employees were doing, before taking things further. i'd like to remind you that a man committed suicide as a result of their campaign. if he had been told about the actions of his employees perhaps he would have addressed the issue, we won't know because he didn't have the opportunity.

i also stand by my statement that animal activists do not have animal welfare at heart. rather than seeking to work alongside the meat industry to improve animal welfare, they attempt to convert people to veganism with their animal cruelty voyeurism. they deliberately put themselves at odds with the meat industry so that they could never collaborate amicably to improve the welfare of farm animals.

these same organisations campaign against animal testing in the UK. this does not benefit animals. testing will not stop happening but will be relocated to countries that do not have the same standards of welfare that we have here, directly increasing animal suffering as a result. anyone who cared about animal welfare would be working alongside laboratories to help improve welfare and find alternatives.

animal activists seek to be controversial, they do not seek to improve animal welfare. after all, if they actually did something to improve animal welfare, what would they have to be angsty about?

No, a man committed suicide as a result of being *found out*. Are you saying cruelty should not be exposed just in case the person responsible for it panics and kills themselves? Should people not be held accountable? Should a murderer not be sent to prison just in case he's found hanged in his cell?

Animal cruelty voyeurism? What is that supposed to mean?! The things they expose HAPPEN. The general public is largely ignorant of what the meat industry involves - the fact that people are disgusted when these things are exposed and, sometimes decide to stop funding them by buying meat, or drinking milk (anyone aware of how the dairy industry works will know that it involves just as much slaughter as the meat industry), is testament to this. Do you believe that people should be kept in the dark about things that would horrify them, just so that farmers can earn their money? Plenty of animal welfare groups attempt to gain improvements in animal welfare standards on farms, but are dismissed and insulted - do you seriously think changes are made without legislation to enforce them? Surely you're not naïve enough to believe that a multimillion pound industry, in which profits come way ahead of animal welfare, would resond to polite requests to change? Campaigning and exposing harsh realities is, therefore, the only way of effecting change by raising awareness and allowing people to decide for themselves what they will and won't accept.

People ARE working hard to develop and introduce alternatives to animal testing (e.g. Dr Hadwen Trust). Of course you have idiots who do stupid things in an attempt to draw attention to the plight of laboratory animals, and end up getting everyone opposed to animal testing tarred with the same brush, but there is excellent work going on that is gradually being embraced. It's a very difficult situation - of course no-one with animal welfare at heart wants to indirectly cause an increase in suffering elsewhere, and yet for an increasing number of people it is unacceptable (not just for animal welfare reasons). Do you allow something that you find unacceptable to go ahead, just because others do? Just because companies here can import materials made by slave labour in other countries, does it mean we should allow slave labour here? Anyway, I think any intelligent person knows that the way ahead in terms of attempts to decrease, and ultimately end, the use of animals in experiments, is the development and implementation of alternatives.

Your final paragraph is pretty infantile, and is an insult to your intelligence. Either that, or you're completely ignorant of the mindblowing extent to which animals are being put through hell by human beings, in countless different ways, every single day. Being upset and disheartened by this is wrong, is it? Being moved to attempt to help is wrong, is it?

[schizopear]

(Original post by Snuffleupagus)
The general public is largely ignorant of what the meat industry involves - the fact that people are disgusted when these things are exposed and, sometimes decide to stop funding them by buying meat, or drinking milk (anyone aware of how the dairy industry works will know that it involves just as much slaughter as the meat industry), is testament to this.

becoming a vegan is not the only way to express disapproval of the mistreatment of animals in the meat/dairy industry. as an ex-vegetarian, i am happy to buy meat that has been ethically produced. i was a vegetarian for over a decade but my personal experiences of the meat industry have reassured me that eating animals is acceptable - not every farm treats their animals the way animal activists would have people believe.

Do you allow something that you find unacceptable to go ahead, just because others do? Just because companies here can import materials made by slave labour in other countries, does it mean we should allow slave labour here? Anyway, I think any intelligent person knows that the way ahead in terms of attempts to decrease, and ultimately end, the use of animals in experiments, is the development and implementation of alternatives.

i think that some animal research is acceptable - at least until a suitable alternative can be found. in the meantime, i would like to think that any necessary animal testing that is to take place will take place somewhere like the UK. at the moment animal testing is a legal requirement in some situations, so we either perform a necessary evil as humanely as we can here, or we outsource it to people who don't care? and people who apparently care about animal welfare would prefer the latter??

unfortunately, it seems unlikely that we will be able to replace animal testing altogether in the near future, and finding alternatives will probably require more animal testing. this clip pretty much sums up what i don't like about people who are completely anti-animal testing (it's actually a woman from the Dr Hadwen Trust you mentioned...). the bit about herceptin (around the 2 min mark) is particularly frustrating.

Your final paragraph is pretty infantile, and is an insult to your intelligence. Either that, or you're completely ignorant of the mindblowing extent to which animals are being put through hell by human beings, in countless different ways, every single day. Being upset and disheartened by this is wrong, is it? Being moved to attempt to help is wrong, is it?

i think that people should be upset about animal cruelty and be moved to do something about it. we just have different ideas about what we should be doing to make things better, or rather how.