Advice after a bad year doing maths at Cambridge-switch tripos/transfer uni?

Scroll to see replies

Xavikadavi

Basically I'm just after some advice- has anyone been in a similar situation/know someone that has? Has anyone stuck out their course after doing badly in the first year and been successful in the end? I just don't want to be working this hard and come out of it all with a bad degree!

Thanks for any help whatsoever, and sorry this has been a bit of an essay :P

I would reiterate some of the points others have made in this thread. Firstly more supervision is available, but you have to be proactive in pushing for it. Also if you don't find particular supervisors helpful then you can ask your DoS to find different people for you instead. Even if your DoS isn't that helpful, if you push for it I'm sure you'll get the support.

I think the others are right in suggesting that you consider how you feel about Cambridge. If you really like it as a place and have settled in and made friends and so forth then it might be worth considering changing course rather than University.

Finally you should remember that people often get better as they progress through their degrees as a trend. Often there's more freedom later on in the degree to ditch things you're not good at. Another side is that people definitely get better at study skills and being able to suss out things like exam technique and so forth.

So just take all these things into account. I'm not saying that moving away might not be the best thing for you, its just worth seeing it in perspective. Many many people have a very difficult first year. It is a big step and it takes some longer than others to adjust.

andy786

dont be jealous mate..
i am not from oxbridge either but the a second from there is a lot more worth than a first from some other uni...
people would die to be in her shoes..

Whoops

Reply 21

smilepea

Xavikadavi

Have to say I'm not the biggest fan of life at Cambridge and probably would have been a lot happier somewhere else, but if moving's not really an option I just want to do what's gonna be best for me employment-wise now :frown:

What you say about the pure/applied side makes a lot of sense - for final revision I focused on my strongest topic for each paper which in every case was the applied one- I've found these so much more managable over the year (hence why I thought maybe I should be on the natsci course doing physics :wink:

. I found pure impossible- esp. groups and analysis. So in the exams I usually ended up answering as many applied qs as possible with very few, if any, pure ones. I don't know whether this just meant I didn't answer enough qs or the ones I did do were completely wrong- like you said the mark breakdown'll be handy. My DoS was meant to email that to us today...

So anyway, my question would be is it feasible to focus completely on applied in the 2nd year?? That wouldn't disadvantage you in the exams? My only worry from doing the papers this year is that, while the applied qs were 'easier', they seemed a hell of a lot longer -is that always generally the case? I asked my DoS all of this but she said a bit generically that it's best to do both pure and applied, and question length is just luck of the draw.

Switching tripos: Didn't do any physics modules this year - I realise i should've done now. Would it be incredibly hard to join in the second year? I'm seeing this as a risky option now.

Transferring uni -From the replies i've got so far it seems most unis just don't accept transfers at all or need a better grade so this is looking less likely... Does anyone know of any ones that do take people into the second year for maths??

Not sure employer-wise. I know a lot of companies in the city ask for minimum 2.1 degree and won't consider you otherwise. I was at a PwC open day today and got told that basically the university and subject don't really matter- what's important is the grade. Specifically, I wouldn't get further than the application stage even if i had a cambridge 2.2 in maths. I would LOVE for this not to be true on the whole with employers- please contradict me!!

Cool, wrt employment you're most likely to do best in what you enjoy so getting your subject right is the most important thing in both the short and long term!!

You certainly can do well with only do pure or applied, I have a friend who only did applied this year (in IB) or as far as I can remember any way (she may have done one pure course) and got at 2.1. Doing only applied meant that she was much happier and did much better. And the applied courses are much, much better in 2nd year, I know the first year applied courses aren't brilliant and certainly not what I consider applied!!

It certainly isn't easy to switch into second year physics without having done IA, but it is possible, extra support is very useful, I had supervisions on the practicals which really helped me with this year. It depends on the physics DoS in your college as to whether they'd take you, but it IS possible, but by no means easy, but I've completely loved the physics I've done this year.

I can't help you on transferring unis, but if you really think that this might be the best idea then the CUSU education officer may be in the best place to offer you advice.

A 2.2 in maths for Cambridge isn't the end of the world when it comes to jobs, my friend had internship offers from both PWC and EY for this summer with a 2.2 last year. I also got to final rounds with investment banks and EY after not doing well last year, most places just ask for your predicted grade!!

Reply 22

Zhen Lin

Galatea

I think I'm right in saying that a lot of first year maths and science subjects are graded in terms of norm marking

Officially, I don't think the maths tripos is graded that way. However, I have seen that there used to be a guideline that they shouldn't give more than 6% thirds. The year they abolished that, there were 12% thirds.

Xavikadavi

So anyway, my question would be is it feasible to focus completely on applied in the 2nd year?? That wouldn't disadvantage you in the exams? My only worry from doing the papers this year is that, while the applied qs were 'easier', they seemed a hell of a lot longer -is that always generally the case? I asked my DoS all of this but she said a bit generically that it's best to do both pure and applied, and question length is just luck of the draw.

I've found that applied questions consistently take longer to do. This isn't a disadvantage if you find pure questions impossible, but if you can do both, then, from a mark-maximising perspective, it is a disadvantage to focus on applied. I did only 3 applied Section II questions (not counting the shared Complex Analysis/Methods questions) in my exam this year, out of a total of 24.

That said, you should try to do both, if only so that you don't end up in a horrible situation when all the pure or all the applied examiners are evil. Also, anecdotally, two of my friends swung totally one way (in opposite directions!) and ended up doing worse this year than last year.

Reply 23

popman

Xavikadavi

I'm definitely not giving up, just trying to be realistic here - maths builds on previous knowledge like you say so surely it's only going to get a lot worse next year? Considering I really felt I was improving in the last term and was getting on top of it, then still got a third, just makes me wonder if I'm capable of getting a 2.1. And if I can't I feel I should get out now! + what's frustrating is I felt I knew the theory just kept getting stuck in qs too early on to be able to show what I knew - would extra classes be beneficial in this case?

Math is math wherever you go.

And yeah, it's going to get a lot worse next year if you continue doing what you got you in this situation.

I'm sure you know this already: competency in math arises from doing math.

In my experience, sometimes I get tricked into believing I understand a math concept because I understand the theory and "how" behind the example in the textbook. I then move onto other concepts. When it comes to problem solving, I keep having to go back to earlier concepts and practise more problems involving them because I hadn't practised applying the theory to novel/lateral problems.

Keep doing more and more problems for every new concept you learn. Don't progress until you've mastered the step you're at.

And obviously extra classes would be beneficial, since your supervisor can guide you through a particular problem so that you can "see" the process of problem solving evolving.

Reply 24

anselan

Hi,

Thanks to the poster for bravely describing their situation and asking for advice. I graduated in math from Cambridge a good few years ago, and have a few comments.

These days, I think having a 2-1 from a reasonable university in a good subject is very important. A 2-2 from Cambridge is not perceived as so worthy. This may be unjust, but that's the way of it. Another important goal is to be happy, of course.

So I think you have 3 choices, basically:
(a) bravely plug away
(b) change tripos at Cambridge
(c) change Unis keeping doing math.

(a) Math at University level, particularly Cambridge, is very abstract and different from school. Many smart people find that it's not a transition that they can make. Although, to some extent, study pays off, a lot of it is just "natural" talent. Unless there is some underlying reason for problems in Year 1 (e.g. illness) it's not going to get any easier. Indeed year 3 (so-called "part II") is really hard. The one guy I knew who did try to keep going to the end after an initial 3rd dropped out. So if you've already tried working hard, then it's time to look at the other options.

(b) My friends who changed tripos generally did well. One in particular went from a 3rd in Math to a 2-1 in Psych, and has now got a stellar career in IT. Another got a 1 in some kind of economics/business course - I forget the details. There are lots of other tripos choices available, and there is no loss of face associated with changing subjects - the Cambridge system is deliberately flexible in this way. People do understand that Math, especially at Cambridge, is hard.

(c) Changing Unis. I don't know anyone who did this. If you are enjoying Uni and have good friends, then it seems to me sad to have to leave them all behind. There's also the question of how easy you might find it to settle into a new Uni and make new friends. And you could still be stuck with a difficult Math course. But I can't really advise on this option.

So based on what you say, I would recommend looking at other subjects in Cambridge. I myself arrived at Cambridge to study Economics, but was able to change to Math before the first day of study. It was very smooth, and I'm really glad I made the shift.

All the best.

Reply 25

Positronized

Seeing that this thread got bumped I have one thing to add...

Zhen Lin

I've found that applied questions consistently take longer to do. [...] That said, you should try to do both, if only so that you don't end up in a horrible situation when all the pure or all the applied examiners are evil. Also, anecdotally, two of my friends swung totally one way (in opposite directions!) and ended up doing worse this year than last year.

Yes, I have to admit I did worse than last year, but only marginally. Granted, if the applied questions were any harder I probably would've dropped a class, but even now I have no regrets.

I knew from the outset that pure maths isn't exactly my kind of thing and didn't plan to do any in IB. However in Michaelmas of IB I got kind of dragged into doing the pure stuff by my DoS, which I didn't mind (Analysis II was, I think, quite interesting, while LinAlg was sooooo boring...) At the end of the day, though, I decided that the best way for me to spend my Easter term was to concentrate on something I'm not bored by, namely applied maths.

The applied questions turned out to be quite a bit stranger than usual but I just about managed. I probably would've got a few more alphas had I worked on my pure maths but, as I said, no regrets as I had quite an enjoyable Exam term this way. Zhen Lin totally disagreed with my approach and thought I should've done more pure stuff for more marks.

The point is it IS feasible to specialise in IB but you have to be pretty realistic whether you're actually confident in the courses you choose to do, and you've got to be prepared to lose a few potential alphas in the exam as well. By the time you get to Part II, if you're doing well, I think you'd be encouraged to specialise anyway.

Reply 26

Chewwy

second year is harder than first. unless you can envision some scenario where you do much better next year - which necessarily entails you working harder, not just pinning your hopes on magically getting better supervisions, you're unlikely to move all the way up to 2:1 land, and so perhaps should consider other options.

my friend got a 2:2 in maths IA, switched to physics and got easy firsts. so maybe natsci is easier - certainly the maths element shouldn't prove too taxing. but i don't like using personal examples, since one can pull out personal examples to prove whatever point I choose really...

Reply 27

Hashshashin

I agree with Chewwy and other posters that it really depends how much work you did this year, and how much you think you're likely to do next year. I got a third this year in IA as well, but I did no work. As in, I didn't answer a single Probability, Groups or Analysis question in the exams because I hadn't learnt any of these courses. I'm now in the position of catching up over the summer - I've learnt more probability in the last 10 days than in the year before that, and I'm starting on Analysis tomorrow.

So basically, if you can get the motivation to drag your pure maths up before IB starts in October, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to turn things around.

Reply 28

Xavikadavi

Hi guys, thanks for the comments.
I've more or less decided that carrying on with maths at Cambridge isn't in my best interests- I haven't enjoyed the course this year, really struggled with it and, knowing it's going to get a lot harder and more stressful, I can't convince myself it'll be worth it in the long run.

anselan

So I think you have 3 choices, basically:
(a) bravely plug away
(b) change tripos at Cambridge
(c) change Unis keeping doing math.

(a) Math at University level, particularly Cambridge, is very abstract and different from school. Many smart people find that it's not a transition that they can make. Although, to some extent, study pays off, a lot of it is just "natural" talent. Unless there is some underlying reason for problems in Year 1 (e.g. illness) it's not going to get any easier. Indeed year 3 (so-called "part II") is really hard. The one guy I knew who did try to keep going to the end after an initial 3rd dropped out. So if you've already tried working hard, then it's time to look at the other options.

(b) My friends who changed tripos generally did well. One in particular went from a 3rd in Math to a 2-1 in Psych, and has now got a stellar career in IT. Another got a 1 in some kind of economics/business course - I forget the details. There are lots of other tripos choices available, and there is no loss of face associated with changing subjects - the Cambridge system is deliberately flexible in this way. People do understand that Math, especially at Cambridge, is hard.

Thanks for this- you've kind of confirmed what I feared with regard to staying on with maths - I feel hard work can only get you so far and I could easily see how I could go back, reach the limit and end up dropping out, so to hear that did happen to someone is awful- I really sympathise with the guy.

So ultimately I'm left with either switching subject or changing uni. To be honest I'd kind of ruled out switching subject as I thought it was too much of a risk at Cambridge, but other's people's experiences are always helpful! One question about your friend who changed to Pyschology - did they go into year 2 or redo the first year? I assumed with the pre-requisite subjects anything but a change to maths+physics wouldn't be feasible. Do you know how they made the choice- I mean how they learnt enough about the course and subject to feel they'd be better off doing it?!

I asked my DoS about the possibility of switching to NatSci or Engineering. Engineering's a no because I'd need to be reinterviewed and then start the 4yr course from yr 1.
With Natsci, I could do a straight switch to do maths and the two physics options in yr 2. I'd be really unsure about this - I don't know how much I like physics (I'm guessing A-Level's not much to go on here!), I'm getting mixed feedback about how difficult it'd be compared to maths, especially with all the catching up needed, and I know the timetable's a lot heavier. I don't think I'd want to switch to something away from maths completely, and I still think I would have got on fine with it if I'd gone somewhere else.

That said, at the moment I'm trying to get offers from other universities to do maths, but it's proving very hard to find anywhere with places and who'd consider me for yr 2 because of my grade. Working progress... :wink:

Thanks guys

Reply 29

smilepea

Xavikadavi

Hi guys

Psychology in nat sci only starts in the second year so it could be one of your 3 nat sci options in second year.

With the physics courses I did the A course this year without having done any physics last year and whilst I worked hard and I had some excellent support for the practicals and I wouldn't say that it was too hard, yes it was hard but it was manageable. Also that's on the back of an AWFUL IA year, and I mean about as bad as it could have been, also I didn't commit as much time as I would have liked to the physics as I was attempting to write essays at the same time.

So I would say that it is definitely possible to swap in without having done the physics, and you'd have 9 lectures, 8hrs of practical and 3 supervisions a week which really isn't that bad.

Or you could swap to nat sci and not do physics, by doing maths, HPS (history and philosophy of science) and psychology.

I think I've rambled, let me know if you want to know anything specific!!