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spidergareth
In your opinion yes. :smile:


Well obviously, lol.

TBH anybody that thinks the phrase 'not the same' is synonymous with 'worse' is an idiot.
Reply 81
paddy__power
Do we have purple phoneboxes? But could we?


We don't really have that many phoneboxes any more...

No but I'd have liked this referendum to run differently so that's not really my fault. I wanted to be able to create more extensive documents to be given out some time in advance of the actual debate/voting as well as other things.


Well we have to work with what we've got which means that the debate has to be broad rather than relying on the same tired stuff that we always face when Europe is mentioned.
"Nope not bad at all. I don't know enough about this specifically to really dispute your claims effectively. All I can say is that a lot more is saved from leaving - but that's far too broad so I will defer on this point to someone else who knows more about it."


Said by the leader of TSR UKIP,

If that is what they end up putting forward in debate than let's be honest there is not enough of a justification to even ponder leaving the EU. Yet another student who has succumbed to the myth and speculation of rather critical british newspapers that live off of chaos to sell papers.

If the UKIP leader cannot fight there own corner then who can it be possibly refered to?

The problem with statistics is it is easier to show what we put into the EU, but it is next to impossible to measure how much money the EU contributes to the success of some of our business'. The only way you can really see how beneficial the EU is for bringing wealth into the country and generating jobs is to actually leave it and see how badly we drop into insignificance as a nation, something we should not try and trust that its actual common sense all our business' relies on our EU involvement to carry on.

My point about remaining in the EU is it increases the significance of the UK in the world theatre. If a nation wants the EU to discuss something there are three main countries to go to due to our seat numbers: The UK, Germany and France. We should use our number of MEP's to reform the EU to make it more attractive to european society and embrace some of the potential opportunities open to the UK due to its EU membership.

If you think about influence and power from a mathmatical sense, if you put EU nations influence and power and add it together you get naturally more power and more influence as a collective, self explanatory. In conjunction at the same time of doing that formula you also have potential influence that also increases.

The bigger you pool resources and power the more opportunity you have to influence, since influence is more power and more power equates to a higher standing in the world as a nation, what actually happens is by the UK being in the EU we get better deals with other nations outside of the EU, who will do something for us if we put there word forward in the EU. The best example of this is the USA, the USA are only as interested in the UK aslong as the UK is involved in the EU. If we pull out of the EU, our international standing will plummit and we will be less useful to other nations and therefore our international role will deplete, if we are not involved internationally we cannot seek to progress as a nation in a globalized world where international standing is everything.

So a vote to pull out of the EU is a vote against a progressive UK and a vote to put us further behind the rest of the world. Stay and we can all continue to play :smile:
Reply 83
I've got three problems with the EU.

Fisheries - There is simply no excuse for the complete and utter **** up that is the European fishery policies. Every single year our sea is raped. Iceland refuses to join the EU simply for this reason. All because of politicans are afraid of fishermen protesting. If a oil worker said that Petrol doesn't cause Global warming. Would you believe it? Well the EU seems to ignore it's own scientific advice every single year and listen to the fishermen who swear that EU seas are full of fish.

Not only that. EU law allows fishing boats to go to Africa and rape the seas there. Certain countries like the Portaguese and the Spanish are known to illegally fish in Somali waters. The number reason for piracy of the Somali coast. Why should we fund these backward nations who simply see the EU has a cash cow?

Common Agriculture policy - It is complelety and utterly disgusting that the EU spends 50 billion Euros every single year on farms. Farms that produce to much products. Whats complelelty retarded is that the EU research budget is 6.4 billion. Instead of looking into the future. The EU is just a way for certain nations to suck money from others. The EU will give money away to farmers in France and Poland. Yet the Polish government makes it illegal for non Polish people to buy land. So their farms will forever remain backwards. If they want our money they should be told to **** off.

Internal Immigration - What kind of an idiot thought it was a good idea to allow unrestricted immigration across the EU for all nations? They should have made an exception for the poor countries like Poland or Romania. Since the date of the UK joining the European Community. There has never been a flood of Danish or Swedish workers into the UK. Thats because their country is good enough. Yet more Polish people have arrived in the last 6 years then the number of Indian people who have arrived in the last 50 years.
This is to those who bang the EFTA drum.

The EFTA is for nations who are not apart of the EU and do not want to go the extra mile as the EU just yet, it is not a group you can step away from the EU and step into just like that without any repurcussions.

EFTA is an option for nations who are not yet ready to join the EU and is often perceived to actually be a stepping stone to the EU not an alternative.

Ultimately the EFTA will be absorbed by the EU and other nations will have to join because the incentives are too good and the drawbacks are too large. For each member more thats one more drawback for the EFTA.

The problem again stated above in my previous post is the EFTA will diminish our world influence potential. We have a greater influence over the world around us in the EU and there is no political influence to be gained from the EFTA. The EFTA is merely a stepping stone into the EU and to exit the EU and ultimately have to go back into it, will mean France and Germany will not be so generous in the deal we get and seat allocation in the EU parliament. Therefore the longer you are in it and the earlier you joined the greater the benefits will get with each passing year.
Stettin
I've got three problems with the EU.

Fisheries - There is simply no excuse for the complete and utter **** up that is the European fishery policies. Every single year our sea is raped. Iceland refuses to join the EU simply for this reason. All because of politicans are afraid of fishermen protesting. If a oil worker said that Petrol doesn't cause Global warming. Would you believe it? Well the EU seems to ignore it's own scientific advice every single year and listen to the fishermen who swear that EU seas are full of fish.

Not only that. EU law allows fishing boats to go to Africa and rape the seas there. Certain countries like the Portaguese and the Spanish are known to illegally fish in Somali waters. The number reason for piracy of the Somali coast. Why should we fund these backward nations who simply see the EU has a cash cow?

Common Agriculture policy - It is complelety and utterly disgusting that the EU spends 50 billion Euros every single year on farms. Farms that produce to much products. Whats complelelty retarded is that the EU research budget is 6.4 billion. Instead of looking into the future. The EU is just a way for certain nations to suck money from others. The EU will give money away to farmers in France and Poland. Yet the Polish government makes it illegal for non Polish people to buy land. So their farms will forever remain backwards. If they want our money they should be told to **** off.

Internal Immigration - What kind of an idiot thought it was a good idea to allow unrestricted immigration across the EU for all nations? They should have made an exception for the poor countries like Poland or Romania. Since the date of the UK joining the European Community. There has never been a flood of Danish or Swedish workers into the UK. Thats because their country is good enough. Yet more Polish people have arrived in the last 6 years then the number of Indian people who have arrived in the last 50 years.


This justifies reform not to leave it, just because your angry with some of the policies you want to quit involvement?

So lets say you live in Norfolk for example and all the people in Norfolk are angry at UK policy, they decide to quit the UK rather than voice there concerns and elect representatives to put forward there point of view and reform things so that the people in Norfolk are more content with UK policies.

The alternative is Norfolk shuts its borders to the rest of the UK and puts up a tax entry to the county, can you not see the obvious problems with an independent Norfolk nation?

If you can identify the problem with a nation of Norfolk then you can then identify the problem with a UK not apart of the EU, the problems are the same. How would you like to be refused entry to Majorca because we left the EU and have to pay £40 in VISA and give 2 months notice to Majorca if you want to go on a trip there. Because that is the sort of thing that will happen if we leave the EU.

Moan about the immigrants all you want, but I bet your happy to go to holiday in Spain and walk straight through passport control as an EU citizen, you would be the first to complain if you was refused entry to Spain because they did not fancy letting you into there country, because you looked a little rough and heated.

You have the right to go to Poland set up your own business and employ cheap labour and export products to the UK and make large profit margins. So they have the right to come work here... All you are doing is looking at the side of the coin that effects you in the UK consider the other free movement you get being apart of the EU and free opportunity to conduct business anywhere within the EU without the need for sponsorship and VISA's.

Can I just add this country was built on immigrants, it is because of these immigrants there is a huge middle class in this country. They took the factory jobs so you could sit in an office chair on a higher salary, think about how they have actually benefited you. If you buy all the myths then more fool you, immigration has made the UK wealthy...
Stettin
Internal Immigration - What kind of an idiot thought it was a good idea to allow unrestricted immigration across the EU for all nations? They should have made an exception for the poor countries like Poland or Romania. Since the date of the UK joining the European Community. There has never been a flood of Danish or Swedish workers into the UK. Thats because their country is good enough. Yet more Polish people have arrived in the last 6 years then the number of Indian people who have arrived in the last 50 years.


That was Tony Blair's fault for not setting a 'transitional cap' on migrants from Poland. Ever wonder why you never heard about loads of Polish immigrants in Germany or France? Both those countries capped the number of migrants that they would take. It was the UK's fault not the EU's

There is now a cap on the number of immigrants from Romania.
spidergareth
That was Tony Blair's fault for not setting a 'transitional cap' on migrants from Poland. Ever wonder why you never heard about loads of Polish immigrants in Germany or France? Both those countries capped the number of migrants that they would take. It was the UK's fault not the EU's

There is now a cap on the number of immigrants from Romania.


What you're saying isn't completely true...

Yeah, you don't hear a lot about "Polish" immigrants in Germany, however they do have a big problem with Turkish immigrants. So it's not all perfect there.
xXedixXx
What you're saying isn't completely true...

Yeah, you don't hear a lot about "Polish" immigrants in Germany, however they do have a big problem with Turkish immigrants. So it's not all perfect there.


Turkey isn't in the EU, so thats got nothing to do with EU immigration.
spidergareth
Turkey isn't in the EU, so thats got nothing to do with EU immigration.


I didn't say it was. However, if they have such a problem with migrants coming from a country outside of the EU, think of the problems caused by immigration from countries within the EU.

I think the UK Government's power shouldn't be diluted by the EU.
paddy__power
I though both sides were meant to give the list of people that were on that side - so Jangra should have had Adorno/Sergio etc. Not a big deal.


What the actual heck, I wrote this:

me
The European Union is, as it always has been since the United Kingdom joined it, beneficial to our country.

Membership makes economic sense:

53% of all UK imports come from within the EU, withdrawal from the EU would mean being forced to renegotiate trade with the nations that we import half of everything that comes into England with no guarantee of the terms dictated by the Single Market of the EU.

Likewise in 2009 the UK exported £124.2 billion of goods within the EU of a total £225.7 billion (55%). Withdrawal from the EU would again pose major problems with what is more than half of all exports from this country.

The EU guarantees that the 26 other member nations must show no favouritism in trade, thus our partners in Europe, if importing such goods, are obliged to buy from and sell to us, a guarantee we cannot do without. Increasing the complications of this trade by withdrawing from the single economy of the EU is certain to cost the UK dearly, in both the short and long terms. When dealing with half of all foreign trade we make, we cannot afford to take the hit of leaving the EU.

Membership makes political sense:

The United Kingdom is undoubtedly a major player in Europe. While we recognise there are serious and valid concerns about the authority which Brussels has over the United Kingdom it is worth bearing in mind that this does not represent an erosion of British independence. We have refused to join the Euro. We have refused to abolish border control between our nation and the rest of the EU. We have refused to accept a 48 hour working week as mandatory and maintained an opt out. We have done all this and maintained all the economic benefits the EU has to offer.

From outside the EU, our power to influence international events will be severely damaged. The EU has extensive international influence. Controlling one quarter of the world’s economy is certainly not something that can simply be ignored. To sacrifice our position in the EU, is to sacrifice any say in the directions and aims of the EU. If we are to remain a modern superpower in a global world as ours is becoming, we must be part of global institutions, of which the EU is one of the largest.


The United Kingdom can maintain both independence and the great financial benefits the EU has to offer us. There is no prospect of some kind of European superstate any time in the foreseeable future. The UK can maintain both independence and continue being a part of the EU, as and when we can’t we are capable of withdrawing, that time is not however now. Thus we implore you to vote yes.



For the pro-EU case from scratch. Uncannily similar. Now I'm not a stickler for being credited but still...
big-bang-theory
What the actual heck, I wrote this:

The European Union is, as it always has been since the United Kingdom joined it, beneficial to our country.




For the pro-EU case from scratch. Uncannily similar. Now I'm not a stickler for being credited but still...


:mmm:

Demand your name be placed there :mad:
Reply 92
misterxninja
This justifies reform not to leave it, just because your angry with some of the policies you want to quit involvement?


You make it sound so simple. The voting in the EU parliment is held up by any nation that feels that they have an issue. The reason why the CAP has existed for so long and refuses to die is because to many people benifit. If a legislation was put today to abloish the CAP over 5 years. Countries like France would move to block it. Their people simply benifit to much for them to allow it to die.

A good example is Strasbourg. Last estimate i say. It costs the EU 100 million euros each year to have the parliment there. Despite the fact tha all the EU institutions are in Brussels. They simple can't move the parliment because the French would protest.

If something simple like that can't be fixed. Why the hell should we have any hope? The Agriculture and the Fisheries policy have been controverisal for years. Nations,Aid,environmental and conservation groups have been lobbying for years. All of this falls on deaf ears.

When Cod banks in the North sea collapses. Ask your self it was worth it. 20 Years on and the Canadian cod banks haven't recovered yet. Nova Scotia is emptying because the main industry has been dead for two decades.



So lets say you live in Norfolk for example and all the people in Norfolk are angry at UK policy, they decide to quit the UK rather than voice there concerns and elect representatives to put forward there point of view and reform things so that the people in Norfolk are more content with UK policies.


There is a difference here. Norfolk is funded directly by the UK. Norfolk is defended by the British Armed forces. Norfolk is under the sovereign of the Queen of the United Kingdom and her Government. It's money is issued by the Bank of England. The relationship between the UK and Norfolk is totally different and the comparision shouldn't even be made.


The alternative is Norfolk shuts its borders to the rest of the UK and puts up a tax entry to the county, can you not see the obvious problems with an independent Norfolk nation?


Norfolk unlike the UK has never proven it's self to be a self sustaining indepedant nation. Norfolk doesn't even have the industries needed to cut it in a Modern world.

The UK however can. The UK is an important part of the EU and a major trading partners with Germany and France. The UK can negiogate with a stronger power then Norway and Iceland who are part of the European single market.


If you can identify the problem with a nation of Norfolk then you can then identify the problem with a UK not apart of the EU, the problems are the same. How would you like to be refused entry to Majorca because we left the EU and have to pay £40 in VISA and give 2 months notice to Majorca if you want to go on a trip there. Because that is the sort of thing that will happen if we leave the EU.


Just because we leave the EU doesn't mean we have no freedom of movements. Do British people pay visa to get in to Norway? No. This is scaremongering.

Moan about the immigrants all you want, but I bet your happy to go to holiday in Spain and walk straight through passport control as an EU citizen, you would be the first to complain if you was refused entry to Spain because they did not fancy letting you into there country, because you looked a little rough and heated.


There is a massive difference between immigrants and holiday makers. Not only that but I don't go on holiday in Europe.


You have the right to go to Poland set up your own business and employ cheap labour and export products to the UK and make large profit margins. So they have the right to come work here... All you are doing is looking at the side of the coin that effects you in the UK consider the other free movement you get being apart of the EU and free opportunity to conduct business anywhere within the EU without the need for sponsorship and VISA's.



A polish guy is allowed to go to any EU country he wants and buy a piece of land. A forgieners last time I checked can't do that in Poland without severe obstacles. Why? Because the Polish stole land from the Germans in WW2 and they don't want the Germans to buy them back. Even though Germany is the biggest contributing nation to the EU budget.

The so called EU harmony is all one sided. The Eastern Europeans just want access to rich countries while the Western side are taking drugs and imaging some so called European Unity.



Can I just add this country was built on immigrants, it is because of these immigrants there is a huge middle class in this country. They took the factory jobs so you could sit in an office chair on a higher salary, think about how they have actually benefited you. If you buy all the myths then more fool you, immigration has made the UK wealthy...


There was a study done a couple of years ago about benifits of immigrants. Immigration benifits the business and the middle class. While the working class suffer the most. Immigrants need places to live. They need jobs. They need to travel. All of this makes it harder of the current working class people.

I am an immgirant my self. I came here as a child. However the difference between me and Polish people is that the government can stop people from India or Africa coming at any time. They have no control over Eastern Europeans.

spidergareth
That was Tony Blair's fault for not setting a 'transitional cap' on migrants from Poland. Ever wonder why you never heard about loads of Polish immigrants in Germany or France? Both those countries capped the number of migrants that they would take. It was the UK's fault not the EU's

There is now a cap on the number of immigrants from Romania.



Blairs fault was what happened until the borders with Poland and the other 8 others were opened. The Bordes of Poland and the other 8 countries were opened and free migration was allowed in 2007. Germany,France and the other countries that decided not to allow the Eastern Europeans to come here were forced to allow people to enter. The cap was limited.
paddy__power
:mmm:

Demand your name be placed there :mad:


Can this be arranged pretty please
daniel_williams
QFA
:smile:
Stettin
Blairs fault was what happened until the borders with Poland and the other 8 others were opened. The Bordes of Poland and the other 8 countries were opened and free migration was allowed in 2007. Germany,France and the other countries that decided not to allow the Eastern Europeans to come here were forced to allow people to enter. The cap was limited.


Thats exactly what I said about Poland, the EU did allow us to opt out by setting a cap but Bliar chose not. The UK's decision not Europe's.

Just to reiterate, there is a cap on Bulgarian and Romanian migrants. That was Browns decision, not the EU's.
big-bang-theory
Can this be arranged pretty please :smile:


Most of my list didn't do anything in the way of contribution lol.

You did, however, forget to adorn that please with a cherry.
paddy__power
Most of my list didn't do anything in the way of contribution lol.

You did, however, forget to adorn that please with a cherry.


I would suggest you push for sugar on top with these negotiations.
Reply 97
spidergareth
Thats exactly what I said about Poland, the EU did allow us to opt out by setting a cap but Bliar chose not. The UK's decision not Europe's.

Just to reiterate, there is a cap on Bulgarian and Romanian migrants. That was Browns decision, not the EU's.


Has I said Blairs fault was 2004-2007. Poland joined in the free movement zone in 2007. Which means that no government can control its people.

When Romania and Bulgaria join. The Government won't be able to enforce these rules. We will have thousands of Gypsies trying their luck on the streets of London. I'm already pissed of at them. Imagine more coming in.
spidergareth
I would suggest you push for sugar on top with these negotiations.


No need to be greedy with these things ;p
Reply 99
Stettin
When Romania and Bulgaria join. The Government won't be able to enforce these rules. We will have thousands of Gypsies trying their luck on the streets of London. I'm already pissed of at them. Imagine more coming in.


They have joined already. But at the same time many of the Poles who came here have left but you can hardly blame them for coming over here having been taught that the Anglo-American way of doing things was the best thing they could ever hope for.

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