Why is engineering under-subscribed?
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innerhollow
You weren't expecting that were you?
You weren't expecting that were you?Yeah, it's like when you meet nice 'girl' in Thailand.
flugestuge
They become chemists at Boots.
Will you please piss off
You're just jealous that if you don't get a job in a bank that's it for you, engineers on the other hand can do both
Nottingham_Banker
Will you please piss off
You're just jealous that if you don't get a job in a bank that's it for you, engineers on the other hand can do both
You're just jealous that if you don't get a job in a bank that's it for you, engineers on the other hand can do both
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u136/Arrowned/fffuuuuuu.jpg
Interesting thread, good question OP.
Maths!
Undefined job. What does an engineer do? No-one knows because you don't come across them like a doctor, solicitor or any of the professions.
Can the average person name 5 engineers? What about 5 footballers? Which are more useful to society? Hmm...
To me it's a really cool subject and discipline - the hard work and the maths sets you apart from the rest... so that's good too isn't it?
Maths!
Undefined job. What does an engineer do? No-one knows because you don't come across them like a doctor, solicitor or any of the professions.
Can the average person name 5 engineers? What about 5 footballers? Which are more useful to society? Hmm...
To me it's a really cool subject and discipline - the hard work and the maths sets you apart from the rest... so that's good too isn't it?
Do these thoughts and opinions apply to computer science?
Cause i have been wondering which has more job prospects, since they both are under subscribed. Im not sure if you can compare the difficulty between the courses since someone better at physics generally do better at eng? Someone who is genuinly interested in computers would probably do better at comp sci?
I only ask this because I have interests for both the courses and I already have a place at cardiff to do Mech Eng, just thinking basically everyday if i should or should not transfer
Cause i have been wondering which has more job prospects, since they both are under subscribed. Im not sure if you can compare the difficulty between the courses since someone better at physics generally do better at eng? Someone who is genuinly interested in computers would probably do better at comp sci?
I only ask this because I have interests for both the courses and I already have a place at cardiff to do Mech Eng, just thinking basically everyday if i should or should not transfer
You need to breathe and live physics for Mech eng particularly in the area of mechanics. It is no more news that for every engineering discipline, you require a certain level of computing proficiency(programming and CAD). Bottom line,if you don't have a genuine interest in mech eng then don't do it.
viperfx
Do these thoughts and opinions apply to computer science?
Cause i have been wondering which has more job prospects, since they both are under subscribed. Im not sure if you can compare the difficulty between the courses since someone better at physics generally do better at eng? Someone who is genuinly interested in computers would probably do better at comp sci?
I only ask this because I have interests for both the courses and I already have a place at cardiff to do Mech Eng, just thinking basically everyday if i should or should not transfer
Cause i have been wondering which has more job prospects, since they both are under subscribed. Im not sure if you can compare the difficulty between the courses since someone better at physics generally do better at eng? Someone who is genuinly interested in computers would probably do better at comp sci?
I only ask this because I have interests for both the courses and I already have a place at cardiff to do Mech Eng, just thinking basically everyday if i should or should not transfer
Pretty sure computer science is not under subscribed.
Samtooth
Pretty sure computer science is not under subscribed.
CS is undersubscribed and the quality of the applicants has fallen dramatically.
That is because many of the jobs have been outsourced to Bengaluru.
Skills-shortage is IMO a business codeword for 'we don't understand why we should pay these jumped up spanner jockeys properly'
engineers getting good pay is a skills shortage and a problem.
lawyers, investment bankers & politicians getting good pay is the cream naturally rising to the top and not a problem.
engineers getting good pay is a skills shortage and a problem.
lawyers, investment bankers & politicians getting good pay is the cream naturally rising to the top and not a problem.
Joinedup
Skills-shortage is IMO a business codeword for 'we don't understand why we should pay these jumped up spanner jockeys properly'
engineers getting good pay is a skills shortage and a problem.
lawyers, investment bankers & politicians getting good pay is the cream naturally rising to the top and not a problem.
engineers getting good pay is a skills shortage and a problem.
lawyers, investment bankers & politicians getting good pay is the cream naturally rising to the top and not a problem.
It's nothing to do with pay, the engineers I know all earn (or earned while actively practicing) £60k+ in their 30s, some are earning £150k+. Admittedly it will never pay as well as the finance industry (which is stupid I agree) but it is not like engineers have a bad graduate salary; it is still one of the highest (top 5 iirc) graduate salaries.
Skills-shortage means we don't have enough people with the right skills, not that employers think we are jumped up spanner jockeys...lol...is this a troll comment?
But this is about the lack of people in school not taking up STEM and/or continuing it at A level (highers? Scotland...), and also the lack of people who will choose engineering at university who have the requisite A levels.
iirc...we (the UK) produce 20,000 engineering graduates per year...of which 40% are foreign and likely to return home, therefore leaving roughly 12,000 engineers in the UK per year.
On an interesting note...China produces more engineering graduates per year than the US produces graduates of any subject...obviously China has a massive population and the quality of the degrees can't be as good but it's something to worry about in the future I think.
I don't think the skills shortage is ever going to stop, unfortunately comprehensive state schools do not tend to push people academically, and would not try nurture a skill in STEM, whereas I can imagine a good grammar or private school would be able to; judging by people I know, a lot of the ones from private or grammar school have done scientific subjects and a lot more have decided on engineering as their university course.
Another interesting fact is that we (the UK) spend 1.3% of GDP on higher education which is below the world average of 1.5%...the US spends over 20%...China is continually increasing their spending also.
No I'm not trolling.
We used to hear there was a terrible skill shortage in computer science. what this meant was business resented paying for skilled IT people to do stuff the guys in the boardroom didn't understand, not that it was impossible for them to send out a phone bill or bank statement due to insufficient numbers or quality of staff.
As soon as business could, it outsourced those jobs.
When the engineering 'skill shortage' is solved we will know because engineers will be payed less than they are now because they will be more engineers competing for the same jobs.
I'm on your side but the Accountants and business leaders don't repect the profession the same as, say, accountants or lawyers (who btw aren't getting outsourced)
We used to hear there was a terrible skill shortage in computer science. what this meant was business resented paying for skilled IT people to do stuff the guys in the boardroom didn't understand, not that it was impossible for them to send out a phone bill or bank statement due to insufficient numbers or quality of staff.
As soon as business could, it outsourced those jobs.
When the engineering 'skill shortage' is solved we will know because engineers will be payed less than they are now because they will be more engineers competing for the same jobs.
I'm on your side but the Accountants and business leaders don't repect the profession the same as, say, accountants or lawyers (who btw aren't getting outsourced)
Joinedup
No I'm not trolling.
We used to hear there was a terrible skill shortage in computer science. what this meant was business resented paying for skilled IT people to do stuff the guys in the boardroom didn't understand, not that it was impossible for them to send out a phone bill or bank statement due to insufficient numbers or quality of staff.
As soon as business could, it outsourced those jobs.
When the engineering 'skill shortage' is solved we will know because engineers will be payed less than they are now because they will be more engineers competing for the same jobs.
I'm on your side but the Accountants and business leaders don't repect the profession the same as, say, accountants or lawyers (who btw aren't getting outsourced)
We used to hear there was a terrible skill shortage in computer science. what this meant was business resented paying for skilled IT people to do stuff the guys in the boardroom didn't understand, not that it was impossible for them to send out a phone bill or bank statement due to insufficient numbers or quality of staff.
As soon as business could, it outsourced those jobs.
When the engineering 'skill shortage' is solved we will know because engineers will be payed less than they are now because they will be more engineers competing for the same jobs.
I'm on your side but the Accountants and business leaders don't repect the profession the same as, say, accountants or lawyers (who btw aren't getting outsourced)
Oh okay, sorry.
Well, I don't think the people running engineering companies are like this, engineers are the pride possession of engineering companies , maybe in general business leaders don't, but the ones who run these companies do.
I don't think it is quite the same as Compsci., skilled IT was bound to be outsourced by business as the business leaders wouldn't see a reason to keep them if it can be done cheaper elsewhere with minor negative impact. But I don't think engineering companies which solely rely on the creative output of their engineers to make profit will be wanting to outsource; especially as effective communication is required at all stages of engineering design.
(As an example of communication problems from outsourcing, Airbus France outsourced part of the design to Germany, and ended up with a wiring system on one half which was completely different to the other wiring system...due to using a different cad system and lack of communication.)
But on the skills shortage bit, I must say I would not have got so much scholarship money (
) if there was an abundance of engineers. So in that respect I suppose it is not too bad; at least we are not two a penny, and some people value engineers highly.It is a fact though that in this country the financial sector is valued more than the engineering sector, which is a joke as the financial sector is a tertiary business which relies on the output of secondary businesses (such as engineering.
).yeah an engineering firm per se is a different animal - but say 20 years ago there were quite a few engineering companies in the FTSE index that's not the case today. We've got a wag the dog economy with management consultants etc sitting at the top of the tree sh-tting down on the rest of us now IMO.
And wrt the IT outsourcing - it's spread from low level tasks to the business critical, design & development stuff there quite rapidly.
And wrt the IT outsourcing - it's spread from low level tasks to the business critical, design & development stuff there quite rapidly.
The thing with STEM is that it will never become useless or unnecessary in a modern society that expects electricity at the flick of a switch, cures for all their diseases, fast intercontinental travel and instant entertainment from a flat-screen. Short sighted politicians may think that switching to a largely financial services based economy may be easy money, but in the long run it'll come back to bite us - in fact it already is.
Britain will be left behind the times if it doesn't increase the amount of STEM graduates and promote STEM careers. We'll be nothing more than a banking centre off the coast of France, full of people that have none of the vital skills in STEM that will advance our society, standard of living and energy efficiency. But meh, Britain chose consuming a long time ago, hence why we have so many marketing managers etc.; at least us STEM folks will still be useful in other countries, so long as we can learn a new language.
Britain will be left behind the times if it doesn't increase the amount of STEM graduates and promote STEM careers. We'll be nothing more than a banking centre off the coast of France, full of people that have none of the vital skills in STEM that will advance our society, standard of living and energy efficiency. But meh, Britain chose consuming a long time ago, hence why we have so many marketing managers etc.; at least us STEM folks will still be useful in other countries, so long as we can learn a new language.
JackF
It's nothing to do with pay, the engineers I know all earn (or earned while actively practicing) £60k+ in their 30s, some are earning £150k+. Admittedly it will never pay as well as the finance industry (which is stupid I agree) but it is not like engineers have a bad graduate salary; it is still one of the highest (top 5 iirc) graduate salaries.
Skills-shortage means we don't have enough people with the right skills, not that employers think we are jumped up spanner jockeys...lol...is this a troll comment?
But this is about the lack of people in school not taking up STEM and/or continuing it at A level (highers? Scotland...), and also the lack of people who will choose engineering at university who have the requisite A levels.
iirc...we (the UK) produce 20,000 engineering graduates per year...of which 40% are foreign and likely to return home, therefore leaving roughly 12,000 engineers in the UK per year.
On an interesting note...China produces more engineering graduates per year than the US produces graduates of any subject...obviously China has a massive population and the quality of the degrees can't be as good but it's something to worry about in the future I think.
I don't think the skills shortage is ever going to stop, unfortunately comprehensive state schools do not tend to push people academically, and would not try nurture a skill in STEM, whereas I can imagine a good grammar or private school would be able to; judging by people I know, a lot of the ones from private or grammar school have done scientific subjects and a lot more have decided on engineering as their university course.
Another interesting fact is that we (the UK) spend 1.3% of GDP on higher education which is below the world average of 1.5%...the US spends over 20%...China is continually increasing their spending also.
Skills-shortage means we don't have enough people with the right skills, not that employers think we are jumped up spanner jockeys...lol...is this a troll comment?
But this is about the lack of people in school not taking up STEM and/or continuing it at A level (highers? Scotland...), and also the lack of people who will choose engineering at university who have the requisite A levels.
iirc...we (the UK) produce 20,000 engineering graduates per year...of which 40% are foreign and likely to return home, therefore leaving roughly 12,000 engineers in the UK per year.
On an interesting note...China produces more engineering graduates per year than the US produces graduates of any subject...obviously China has a massive population and the quality of the degrees can't be as good but it's something to worry about in the future I think.
I don't think the skills shortage is ever going to stop, unfortunately comprehensive state schools do not tend to push people academically, and would not try nurture a skill in STEM, whereas I can imagine a good grammar or private school would be able to; judging by people I know, a lot of the ones from private or grammar school have done scientific subjects and a lot more have decided on engineering as their university course.
Another interesting fact is that we (the UK) spend 1.3% of GDP on higher education which is below the world average of 1.5%...the US spends over 20%...China is continually increasing their spending also.
Actually, I reckon it's more a case of how 'quality' can be defined. A Chinese engineering degree probably trounces the typical British one in terms of rigour. Why? Just look at their past exam papers and curriculum. Our curriculum is no where near as rigorous as theirs. But of course, rigour is only one aspect. Conversely from what I've heard, chinese engineering degrees severely lack a creative component.
I think one of the problems when discussing these issues is the mixture of definitions of "engineer" or "engineering" being used. Often in general media, or even industry, stories about the shortage of engineering skills, the 1000s of vacancies being discussed are at the technician level rather than jobs that might lead to CEng status. As a result, I am never really certain where the skills shortage is actually occurring and what role School/Higher Education needs to play!
(edited 13 years ago)
Sorry for 2 month bump but.....
Look at the statistics from last year, 23,000 people applied for medicince and less than 10,000 go a place on a course.
Electronic Engineering that figure was about a fifth of that, and it seems all of them got a place at least somwhere (although not all their preferred choice I guess).
That is if I am reading the document correctly.
People see a course as a 1 job pony. electronics? you wanna be an electrician! mechanical engineering? ah you wanna be a mechanic! medicine? you wanna be a doctor! law? you wanna be a lawyer!
This is probably about as in depth as the average 16/17 year old goes with course prospects and sadly this is about as in depth my careers adviser went at GCSE level (the irony, taking career advice from a person without one at all)
Engineering principles aren't for the faint hearted which probably deters a lot of people especially the entry requirements. Sadly a lot of people will do Media etc. which is about as useful to an employer as the paper it's written on, sorry, but few jobs in media/entertainment and those with the jobs knew somebody who knew somebody.
But I don't want to generalise everything, people get jobs, just like uni places, it's not always the one they hoped for!
As for a shortage of engineers I wouldn't be surprised, and a lot of people choose courses these days for the money, but it's what YOU do that will get you the job, not getting accepted to a red brick, oxbridge (according to the guardian) doesn't have the best job prospects as say Southampton (although both are pretty high), which has an extremely good facility and is numero 1 by those standards.
Then again I may be wrong.
Look at the statistics from last year, 23,000 people applied for medicince and less than 10,000 go a place on a course.
Electronic Engineering that figure was about a fifth of that, and it seems all of them got a place at least somwhere (although not all their preferred choice I guess).
That is if I am reading the document correctly.
People see a course as a 1 job pony. electronics? you wanna be an electrician! mechanical engineering? ah you wanna be a mechanic! medicine? you wanna be a doctor! law? you wanna be a lawyer!
This is probably about as in depth as the average 16/17 year old goes with course prospects and sadly this is about as in depth my careers adviser went at GCSE level (the irony, taking career advice from a person without one at all)
Engineering principles aren't for the faint hearted which probably deters a lot of people especially the entry requirements. Sadly a lot of people will do Media etc. which is about as useful to an employer as the paper it's written on, sorry, but few jobs in media/entertainment and those with the jobs knew somebody who knew somebody.
But I don't want to generalise everything, people get jobs, just like uni places, it's not always the one they hoped for!
As for a shortage of engineers I wouldn't be surprised, and a lot of people choose courses these days for the money, but it's what YOU do that will get you the job, not getting accepted to a red brick, oxbridge (according to the guardian) doesn't have the best job prospects as say Southampton (although both are pretty high), which has an extremely good facility and is numero 1 by those standards.
Then again I may be wrong.
(edited 13 years ago)
Two of my friends are doing an engineering diploma at A level - they say it's really interesting... I think they're both planning to go into apprenticeships afterwards though - lots of options other than uni available for people who do engineering, perhaps that's why courses are undersubscribed.
(edited 13 years ago)
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