We Dont hold muslims responsible for 9/11

Come off it please. You're making excuses here. Any religious fanatic who wants to commit a crime can easily find some obscure mandate in the Qur'an or the hadith to justify it. The concepts I outlined were, for these murderers, reassurances, impulses, justifications, and senses. Without them they would not have had the motivation, the courage, the strength, even the idea. No matter which way you twist it, when Islam, its documents, and its traditions, lends support to notions such as jihad, sharia, caliphate, waqf etc. people will be able to manipulate it. If this nonsense was abandoned, 9/11 would never have happened. There was no other motivation behind it (don't even think about bringing up U.S. foreign policy mistakes, or you'd be no better than the Falwells, or the wacko conspiracy theorists of this world).

And I just demonstrated how those finding were incorrect, because they don't care about peace in the Middle East: they only want a continuation of the conflict, with the prospect of reclaiming the whole of Palestine, driving every Jew into the Mediterranean (as Hamas and Hezbollah routinely state). The Hamas charter explicitly declares that the whole of the region that was formerly the British Mandate of Palestine is an Islamic waqf. Look it up. Everything I've said here has pages of documentary evidence behind it.

Well, since you clearly don't know your history (Israel was founded in 1948, not 1945), I'll tell you that Zionism - although a fairly foolish idea imo - is not an "imperialist" ideology. It was simply a proposal that an independent state for those of the Jewish diaspora (not a Jewish state) should be set up in the region of Palestine - that's not imperialist. Stealing land? Yes. A silly idea? Yes. Problematic? Yes. Imperialist? No. Al Qaeda, however, are purely motivated by an imperialist desire to see the resurgence of the Islamic caliphate, governed under sharia, and that jihad targetting civilians is a legitimite means by which this ultimate goal can be achieved. Hamas also aren't a "pro-Palestinian" group in my view. Their motivations and actions work contrary to the desires and objectives of the average Palestinian (many who are Christian). Again, read the Hamas charter and you'll see that it's a little bit more than a "reaction" to Zionism.

I want to put to bed this wicked and stupid notion that the United States somehow brought terrorism upon itself once and for all. The main argument can be seen in the response of non-Islamic countries to Western interventions in their affairs. There are hundreds of cases of these, which haven't churned out anything like the danger that Islamic fundamentalism (a concept which has been in existence for over a millennium) poses. Ronald Reagan supported the apartheid regime. JFK/LBJ/Nixon took/kept the U.S. in Vietnam. Reagan invaded Grenada. Kissinger/Nixon instigated a coup in Chile to overthrow the socialist president Salvador Allende. Gerald Ford and Kissinger conspired with the Indonesian President Suharto to invade, and commit genocide in, East Timor. But to even begin to think that Mandela, or the Viet Cong, or the Bishop government, or Allende, or Fretilin would've hijacked a plane full of civilians and crashed it into a building full of civilians would be totally disingenous. The driving force behind Al Qaeda and other jihadists is a primitive, imperialist belief system that wants a resurgence of the caliphate, and the imposition of sharia law on everyone on earth (probably slaughtering every Jew and Christian along the way). It's Islamic Fascism that is the deciding factor. For example, the 7/7 bombers said that they committed their crimes because of the invasion of Iraq. But absolutely none of them had any ancestral or familial connection to Iraq - three were of Pakistani descent, and one was of Jamaican descent - and the only noticable connection was their religion. If they were first-generation Iraqis who'd been forced out of their homes then there'd probably be a point somewhere in there, but they weren't. The fact is that there are thousands of people who are discontented with Western foreign policy. It takes a bit more for this discontent to translate into mass slaughter of civilians. Something rooted in a feeling of divine warrant. One final point is that many of those who became radicalised did so in the mid-90s. Why? Because the West didn't intervene fully in Bosnia when Milosevic was leading pogroms and campaigns against their Muslim brethren. We're damned when we do intervene and we're damned when we don't. We're damned when we are imperialist, and we're damned when we're not. Al Qaeda's doctrine is such that they will hate us regardless: because we are infidels (kuffars) and the Qur'an gives them the right to do so.

Now, I'm going to be in New York - most probably at Ground Zero - on Saturday: and I certainly won't be thinking of any dishonest prick who blames that atrocity on anything other than the true perpetrators of the crime.

Erm, no I didn't. I said that those who divert attention from the real criminals and blame it on U.S. foreign policy are like the types of people who say it was a conspiracy involving the U.S. government, or the Falwells who blamed it on abortion, homosexuality etc.

It is a ridiculous notion, and I don't care whether or not "U.S. politicians disagree". I could be the only person on earth to think that it is, and I'd still think I was right. As it happens, though, it's been discredited so much now that I don't have to worry about such isolation ().

I didn't claim they are solely motivated by religion. I said religion is the only thing that can make rational people behave in such a way (and this is what I've said throughout this thread). The Tamils are psychotic, so your argument does not apply.

Documentary evidence because a documentary you've watched hasn't been spun to satisfy one agenda

One sec I just read you said the Tamils are psychotic, why is this?

I think your ideology is whatever suits the lies used to justify injustice committed by the USA.
I honestly don't believe you believe what you are saying, you just like the idea of being right-wing and that the USA is the light in the world and everything that stands in it's way is evil. Either that or you have been indoctrinated by Fox News. You know they don't even take what they say themselves seriously for a second, it's entertainment driven propaganda.

I didn't claim they are solely motivated by religion. I said religion is the only thing that can make rational people behave in such a way (and this is what I've said throughout this thread). The Tamils are psychotic, so your argument does not apply.

Oh I see your argument is based on your opinions of people's personalities rather than international affairs.

Their excuse was religion, if said religion was the reason behind 9/11 and other similar attacks around the globe then explain to me why ~1.6 billion in the world not blowing the "enemy" to pieces? What parts of this religion condones such actions? The obvious agenda of these people is to achieve their goals (be it political or not) by means of religion.

If you've followed the thread, I've said previously that I believe it was a particularly fundamentalist, extremist reading of Islam that caused it. What I dispute is the claim some people make that this isn't Islam. It's just as much of an "Islam" as their own little cherrypicked niche.



When I said 'Tamils' I was specifically referring to the organisation. Not the ethnic group.

If you've followed the thread, I've said previously that I believe it was a particularly fundamentalist, extremist reading of Islam that caused it. What I dispute is the claim some people make that this isn't Islam. It's just as much of an "Islam" as their own little cherrypicked niche.

So their motivations are purely due to mental illness? It has nothing to do with the fact their ethnicity has been endlessly persecuted and they want self-determination?

What people like you fail to understand is that Islam in itself is a very precise religion with explicit (albeit complicated for the layman) laws, if you wish to study the Islamic Jurisprudence then give about 10-15 years of your life and you should be able to answer any law-based question. There is no room for personal interpretation, when you take a religious stand on an issue islamically you are either wrong or right.

All this debate arises from a lack of knowledge on both sides, I'm worried people will argue if alcohol is Halal or Haram in 200 years

It doesn't change the fact that if the texts didn't exist then there'd be no fuel behind their crazed delusions.

I didn't say that. Although, as it happens, yes, I do believe they're psychotic due to the fact that they commit suicide bombings. Highlighting the Tamil Tigers as an isolated case of a secular group committing suicide bombings (among the hundreds of secular resistance groups that actually exist/have existed in the world) doesn't prove anything. Again, you strike me as someone who clearly hasn't read any literature produced by Al Qaeda or any other jihadist in your life.

I don't think it's so much an issue of looking at it in terms of "elements". I believe that the notion of irrational faith, in itself, is the very mentality that, when strictly adhered to, can lead to atrocity committed in the name of religion. I think that subservience to Gods is a totalitarian belief, and it's no secret that the Al Qaeda fascists who committed the crimes were motivated by a totalitarian impulse. I believe also that their nihilism arose from the pure solipsism and fraudulent promise of the supernatural, and an afterlife. That their radical mentors were responsible for severe sexual repression, making the prospect of 72 virgins when one commits himself to martyrdom even more enticing. That the jihadist, imperialist, anti-Semitic, mediaeval ramblings of bin Ladenist propaganda - which can be attributed to a particular means of reading the Qur'an - offered a similar prospect of grandeur. The very fact that no rational person would commit a crime like that without a sense of divine mandate is testa
ment to its being solely and thoroughly responsible.

So dont hold christians responsible for burn a quran day. okthxbai xo xo

I don't think it's so much an issue of looking at it in terms of "elements". I believe that the notion of irrational faith, in itself, is the very mentality that, when strictly adhered to, can lead to atrocity committed in the name of religion. I think that subservience to Gods is a totalitarian belief, and it's no secret that the Al Qaeda fascists who committed the crimes were motivated by a totalitarian impulse. I believe also that their nihilism arose from the pure solipsism and fraudulent promise of the supernatural, and an afterlife. That their radical mentors were responsible for severe sexual repression, making the prospect of 72 virgins when one commits himself to martyrdom even more enticing. That the jihadist, imperialist, anti-Semitic, mediaeval ramblings of bin Ladenist propaganda - which can be attributed to a particular means of reading the Qur'an - offered a similar prospect of grandeur. The very fact that no rational person would commit a crime like that without a sense of divine mandate is testament to its being solely and thoroughly responsible.

Oh I see your argument is based on your opinions of people's personalities rather than international affairs. I think I'll leave the people in the white coats to deal with you now. Ta ta.