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Transposing using suffix notation

let C=ATA C= A^{T}A
Then;
[C]ij=[AT]ik[A]kj=[A]ki[A]kj [C]_{i j} = [A^{T}]_{ik}[A]_{kj} = [A]_{ki}[A]_{kj}
(where i've swapped the order of the ik on the first A)

now I want to find C transpose. The only way I can think of doing it using suffix notation is to swap the position of the i and j

[CT]ij=[C]ji=[A]kj[A]ki [C^{T}]_{i j}= [C]_{j i} = [A]_{kj}[A]_{ki}

this gives the correct answer but i'm not sure if i'm being inconsistent as first time i swapped order on the same matrix of ik and the second time I swapped i with j- is it because i'm applying a transpose to both matrices at once the second time? if thats the answer though, how do you go about proving that it is the right way to transpose a product using suffix notation (because thats what i'm essentially trying to prove already!).
Reply 1
hai2410
let C=ATA C= A^{T}A
Then;
[C]ij=[AT]ik[A]kj=[A]ki[A]kj [C]_{i j} = [A^{T}]_{ik}[A]_{kj} = [A]_{ki}[A]_{kj}
(where i've swapped the order of the ik on the first A)

now I want to find C transpose. The only way I can think of doing it using suffix notation is to swap the position of the i and j

[CT]ij=[C]ji=[A]kj[A]ki [C^{T}]_{i j}= [C]_{j i} = [A]_{kj}[A]_{ki}

this gives the correct answer but i'm not sure if i'm being inconsistent as first time i swapped order on the same matrix of ik and the second time I swapped i with j- is it because i'm applying a transpose to both matrices at once the second time? if thats the answer though, how do you go about proving that it is the right way to transpose a product using suffix notation (because thats what i'm essentially trying to prove already!).


I don't see the issue. You're doing different things in each case. In the first you're transposing A so you switch i and k. In the second you're transposing C so you switch i and j. You're not assuming anything about how products transpose.

To show that the product transposes the way it does:

Suppose
C=ABC = AB

Then
[CT]ij=[C]ji=[A]jk[b]ki=[AT]kj[BT]ik=[BT]ik[AT]kj[C^T]_{i j} = [C]_{j i} = [A]_{j k} [b]_{k i} = [A^T]_{k j} [B^T]_{i k} = [B^T]_{i k} [A^T]_{k j}

ie
CT=BTAT C^T = B^T A^T
Reply 2
SsEe
I don't see the issue. You're doing different things in each case. In the first you're transposing A so you switch i and k. In the second you're transposing C so you switch i and j. You're not assuming anything about how products transpose.

To show that the product transposes the way it does:

Suppose
C=ABC = AB

Then
[CT]ij=[C]ji=[A]jk[b]ki=[AT]kj[BT]ik=[BT]ik[AT]kj[C^T]_{i j} = [C]_{j i} = [A]_{j k} [b]_{k i} = [A^T]_{k j} [B^T]_{i k} = [B^T]_{i k} [A^T]_{k j}

ie
CT=BTAT C^T = B^T A^T


My issue was understanding the difference between swapping i and j and swapping the order of the subscript indices. You're notation is very clear however so now I think when transposing you always swap the position of the i and j on both 'sides'?

One related question: in suffix notation when dealing with matrix-matrix or matrix-vector products are the i and j indices always on the furthest extremes of the suffix notation product (if you order your matrices in the suffix form in the same order as the matrix algebra)?

thanks a lot
Reply 3
Not really sure what you're getting at.

hai2410
My issue was understanding the difference between swapping i and j and swapping the order of the subscript indices.


i and j are the subscript indices. So swapping i and j and swapping the subscript indices are the same thing. :confused:

I think you're asking about how taking the transpose and swapping the indices are linked. Not sure though. In any case,

[C]ij=[CT]ji[C]_{i j} = [C^T]_{j i}

ie, the i,j element of C is the j,i element of C^T

One related question: in suffix notation when dealing with matrix-matrix or matrix-vector products are the i and j indices always on the furthest extremes of the suffix notation product (if you order your matrices in the suffix form in the same order as the matrix algebra)?


What do you mean by the "furthest extremes" ? Do you mean the indices written furthest to the left and right? If so then yes, as long as the matrices/vectors are written in the usual order. But you can just as well write

[AB]ij=[B]kj[A]ik[AB]_{i j} = [{B}]_{k j} [A]_{i k}

Are you just looking for a mnemonic?
Reply 4
SsEe
i and j are the subscript indices. So swapping i and j and swapping the subscript indices are the same thing. :confused:


Swapping the subscript letters would perhaps have been a better way to have distinguished it from swapping i and j indices. They aren't the same thing unless you were using i and j to refer to the 1st and 2nd subscript letters in general and not the specific letter. I, however, was.

If your carrying a transposition on one matrix swapping the order of the subscripts, and swapping the position of the i and j vectors is the exact same thing. Once you have two, the matrices don't all have both i and j subscripts, but have dummy indices and so the things aren't equivalent. I was asking which one is right essentially:- swapping the position of whatever indices you have there so that AikBkj becomes AkiBjk or, what you've told me is now true:- that you swap the position of only the i and j indices. This will always be true for products i'm assuming. Swapping the order of the subscripts so that Aik becomes [A^{T}]ki is really doing a transposition on a single matrix, which you often have to do to make things make sense after having swapped the left and right i and j indices to carry out the product transposition. I think now I get it completely. I'm writing this however so that you may correct me if i'm wrong...

Thank you for your help.

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