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re. Non-Anglophones criticising British monolingualism
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aa45
We need to start actually teaching English before we can even worry about other languages to be honest, if you compare the level of native language education in Britain to other European countries it's almost laughable.
Ask 100 Brits something like 'what is the present subjunctive of to be?' and I'm almost certain over 90% will ask what subjunctive means, even the ones who got As in high school English. Ask the same to most europeans and they can answer you right away (I mean when asking about their own language).
Ask 100 Brits something like 'what is the present subjunctive of to be?' and I'm almost certain over 90% will ask what subjunctive means, even the ones who got As in high school English. Ask the same to most europeans and they can answer you right away (I mean when asking about their own language).
That's because we don't learn the language, we acquire it
. Just because we don't know what the technical term is, doesn't mean that we can't use it. It's not just us on that one, I once had a comment from a German girl saying "German is very hard to learn, especially the grammar. Does German even have grammar rules?"
aa45
We need to start actually teaching English before we can even worry about other languages to be honest, if you compare the level of native language education in Britain to other European countries it's almost laughable.
Ask 100 Brits something like 'what is the present subjunctive of to be?' and I'm almost certain over 90% will ask what subjunctive means, even the ones who got As in high school English. Ask the same to most europeans and they can answer you right away (I mean when asking about their own language).
Ask 100 Brits something like 'what is the present subjunctive of to be?' and I'm almost certain over 90% will ask what subjunctive means, even the ones who got As in high school English. Ask the same to most europeans and they can answer you right away (I mean when asking about their own language).
I don't think whether someone knows the correct title of a verb tense really indicates whether or not they can speak a language...
Spiffing narrative, dear brother of mine.
To be honest, I never thought this until I joined this forum and read many Brits saying how they were ashamed of the UK citizens not being as good as the other countries. And the numerous times I heard or read "why should I learn a language if English is the Lingua Franca and everybody speaks it?".
Also, the fact that in France you can find some tiny villages composed exclusively of British who only speak English and can't say a word in French and live in autarky.
Learning a language isn't only about classes in school anyway. I would estimate school classes to be about 15-20% of my current skills. Usually all the language classes suck in school anyway, even in european countries. Most of my mates have bad English, and those who have decent-ish or good English are those who played games online, read stuff online in English, whatever.Things that nobody has too - they could stay in an environment with French people, or wait for stuff to be translated, whatever. But they do because they want to improve their English.
In continental europe, learning a foreign language is as much a hobby as in the UK. I don't see where you're coming from saying it's socially or culturally bound. Not at all. I didn't learn English because it was a social thing to do or because it's a tradition or something. People learn foreign languages at school only most often, and as I said, it's pretty lame and after the exam equivalent to A-levels, most can't speak the language. They can't make simple sentences.
The last argument is only valid for the borders of a country. Italy, Spain or German during WW2 didn't influence in any way the region I'm living in, and learning one of those language is absolutely not something cultural, historical or whatever.
In the end, what I'm trying to say is, it all boils down to people's will to learn a foreign language, so yeah, British would be rather lazy to learn a foreign languages. On the other hand I know some brits who love languages and they're good at it, only because they wanted to learn them and worked towards this goal of being multilingual. It's not out of your control at all to speak another language...
Also, the fact that in France you can find some tiny villages composed exclusively of British who only speak English and can't say a word in French and live in autarky.
Learning a language isn't only about classes in school anyway. I would estimate school classes to be about 15-20% of my current skills. Usually all the language classes suck in school anyway, even in european countries. Most of my mates have bad English, and those who have decent-ish or good English are those who played games online, read stuff online in English, whatever.Things that nobody has too - they could stay in an environment with French people, or wait for stuff to be translated, whatever. But they do because they want to improve their English.
In continental europe, learning a foreign language is as much a hobby as in the UK. I don't see where you're coming from saying it's socially or culturally bound. Not at all. I didn't learn English because it was a social thing to do or because it's a tradition or something. People learn foreign languages at school only most often, and as I said, it's pretty lame and after the exam equivalent to A-levels, most can't speak the language. They can't make simple sentences.
The last argument is only valid for the borders of a country. Italy, Spain or German during WW2 didn't influence in any way the region I'm living in, and learning one of those language is absolutely not something cultural, historical or whatever.
In the end, what I'm trying to say is, it all boils down to people's will to learn a foreign language, so yeah, British would be rather lazy to learn a foreign languages. On the other hand I know some brits who love languages and they're good at it, only because they wanted to learn them and worked towards this goal of being multilingual. It's not out of your control at all to speak another language...
Who'd_Have_Known
I don't think whether someone knows the correct title of a verb tense really indicates whether or not they can speak a language...
Ofcourse if you just plan on speaking your own language you don't need to know any of that, which is why it isn't currently taught at schools.
I was mostly trying to get at the point that the native language education in other countries is more compatible with foreign language acquisition, knowing how your own language works (as opposed to just speaking it) makes it much easier to learn another one as a teenager/adult.
(edited 13 years ago)
aa45
We need to start actually teaching English before we can even worry about other languages to be honest, if you compare the level of native language education in Britain to other European countries it's almost laughable.
Ask 100 Brits something like 'what is the present subjunctive of to be?' and I'm almost certain over 90% will ask what subjunctive means, even the ones who got As in high school English. Ask the same to most europeans and they can answer you right away (I mean when asking about their own language).
Ask 100 Brits something like 'what is the present subjunctive of to be?' and I'm almost certain over 90% will ask what subjunctive means, even the ones who got As in high school English. Ask the same to most europeans and they can answer you right away (I mean when asking about their own language).
Probably because we don't use the subjuctive though lol. I agree with your point though we need to be taught grammar. Was reading Vogue the other day and someone said brought when they meant bought - seriously can't belive a journalist good enough to write for Vogue would make that mistake! And in asos magazine this month they used a possessive apostrophe in McQueens, as in 'i am wearing a pair of mcqueens to london fashion week'. Grrr!!!
aa45
Ofcourse if you just plan on speaking your own language you don't need to know any of that, which is why it isn't currently taught at schools.
I was mostly trying to get at the point that the native language education in other countries is more compatible with foreign language acquisition, knowing how your own language works (as opposed to just speaking it) makes it much easier to learn another one as a teenager/adult.
I was mostly trying to get at the point that the native language education in other countries is more compatible with foreign language acquisition, knowing how your own language works (as opposed to just speaking it) makes it much easier to learn another one as a teenager/adult.
Perhaps, but then knowing how your own language works, in your own language, is not always that helpful. I am currently living abroad and learning Danish whilst I'm here- I actually finding it incredibly confusing trying to get to grips with the Danish terms for tenses etc, and much easier to learn in terms of the "English equivalent"... i.e. to remember "this set of endings is equivalent to something I have done" and so on.
I can speak Esperanto and it's tons of fun. EAB pays travel expenses to go abroad and the meetings are great fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX7DYeiNyzY
that's IJK in liberec... runs every year.
You can speak Esperanto after ~1 month of learning. You can learn from the website lernu.net
roughly 2million speakers worldwide (same as population of small european country). check it out on wikipedia
peace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX7DYeiNyzY
that's IJK in liberec... runs every year.
You can speak Esperanto after ~1 month of learning. You can learn from the website lernu.net
roughly 2million speakers worldwide (same as population of small european country). check it out on wikipedia
peace
(edited 13 years ago)
spartakist
Apologies, should have made myself clearer. What I meant was recent invaders, when our language had its (almost) modern form
OK, on a more serious note, I think you may be mistaken about the motivations for language-learning in other European countries. Yes, it's partly a necessity, and there are certainly a lot of people who learn English for that reason, but it's also because - unlike in the UK - learning foreign languages is something which is valued in its own right. It's quite common for schoolchildren in other parts of the EU to be forced to learn several foreign languages and no-one would ever question that that's a Good Thing (except the schoolchildren themselves, perhaps). Here, on the other hand, languages aren't even compulsory to GCSE level, because schools are judged by the grades achieved by their students, and languages are comparatively hard subjects to do well in, so there's no incentive for schools to encourage children to study them.
The necessity argument only really explains why so many people from other European countries learn English. However, it doesn't explain why far more of them also learn more languages beyond that. To the average German, the need to learn Spanish, French, Italian, Swedish or ancient Greek isn't actually any more pressing than it is to the average British person, but they're more likely to do it anyway. You're quite right when you say that in the UK language learning is largely regarded as something you do for a hobby, and that attitude is where the real problem lies, especially since it has been officially sanctioned by not making foreign languages compulsory even to GCSE standard, never mind A-level standard.
So I don't really buy into this whole 'It's beyond our control' thing, I'm afraid. I think it's fundamentally an attitude problem.
(edited 13 years ago)
hobnob
OK, on a more serious note, I think you may be mistaken about the motivations for language-learning in other European countries. Yes, it's partly a necessity, and there are certainly a lot of people who learn English for that reason, but it's also because - unlike in the UK - learning foreign languages is something which is valued in its own right. It's quite common for schoolchildren in other parts of the EU to be forced to learn several foreign languages and no-one would ever question that that's a Good Thing (except the schoolchildren themselves, perhaps). Here, on the other hand, languages aren't even compulsory to GCSE level, because schools are judged by the grades achieved by their students, and languages are comparatively hard subjects to do well in, so there's no incentive for schools to encourage children to study them.
The necessity argument only really explains why so many people from other European countries learn English. However, it doesn't explain why far more of them also learn more languages beyond that. To the average German, the need to learn Spanish, French, Italian, Swedish or ancient Greek isn't actually any more pressing than it is to the average British person, but they're more likely to do it anyway. You're quite right when you say that in the UK language learning is largely regarded as something you do for a hobby, and that attitude is where the real problem lies, especially since it has been officially sanctioned by not making foreign languages compulsory even to GCSE standard, never mind A-level standard.
So I don't really buy into this whole 'It's beyond our control' thing, I'm afraid. I think it's fundamentally an attitude problem.
The necessity argument only really explains why so many people from other European countries learn English. However, it doesn't explain why far more of them also learn more languages beyond that. To the average German, the need to learn Spanish, French, Italian, Swedish or ancient Greek isn't actually any more pressing than it is to the average British person, but they're more likely to do it anyway. You're quite right when you say that in the UK language learning is largely regarded as something you do for a hobby, and that attitude is where the real problem lies, especially since it has been officially sanctioned by not making foreign languages compulsory even to GCSE standard, never mind A-level standard.
So I don't really buy into this whole 'It's beyond our control' thing, I'm afraid. I think it's fundamentally an attitude problem.
I think there is a problem with the quality of language teaching in the UK.
Far too much attention is devoted to the rules of grammar and not enough to conversation.
It is nonsense that someone can spend 5 years learning a language and yet not have enough vocabulary to conduct a normal adult conversation in that language.
Foreigners have no wish to listen to lists of their own irregular verbs being quoted at them, but that is a skill that is prized above all others in British language teaching.
Essentially we say to 14 year olds, please continue with French for another two years. You haven't learnt anything useful in three years and unless you do it for four years more rather than two years you won't learn anything useful. However, do it for two years because although you won't won't learn anything useful you will gain a qualification that will be of use. However it is easier to gain that qualification in some other subject, but please do a language anyway.
Furthermore, we have said in the past, and plenty of people want to say in the future, as that argument hasn't convinced you, we are going to make you not learn anything useful in a foreign language for two more years.
I'm so crappily travelled that if I'd **** myself if I went somewhere and didn't know the language, which is bound to happen in the future at some point.
nulli tertius
I think there is a problem with the quality of language teaching in the UK.
Far too much attention is devoted to the rules of grammar and not enough to conversation.
It is nonsense that someone can spend 5 years learning a language and yet not have enough vocabulary to conduct a normal adult conversation in that language.
Foreigners have no wish to listen to lists of their own irregular verbs being quoted at them, but that is a skill that is prized above all others in British language teaching.
Essentially we say to 14 year olds, please continue with French for another two years. You haven't learnt anything useful in three years and unless you do it for four years more rather than two years you won't learn anything useful. However, do it for two years because although you won't won't learn anything useful you will gain a qualification that will be of use. However it is easier to gain that qualification in some other subject, but please do a language anyway.
Furthermore, we have said in the past, and plenty of people want to say in the future, as that argument hasn't convinced you, we are going to make you not learn anything useful in a foreign language for two more years.
Far too much attention is devoted to the rules of grammar and not enough to conversation.
It is nonsense that someone can spend 5 years learning a language and yet not have enough vocabulary to conduct a normal adult conversation in that language.
Foreigners have no wish to listen to lists of their own irregular verbs being quoted at them, but that is a skill that is prized above all others in British language teaching.
Essentially we say to 14 year olds, please continue with French for another two years. You haven't learnt anything useful in three years and unless you do it for four years more rather than two years you won't learn anything useful. However, do it for two years because although you won't won't learn anything useful you will gain a qualification that will be of use. However it is easier to gain that qualification in some other subject, but please do a language anyway.
Furthermore, we have said in the past, and plenty of people want to say in the future, as that argument hasn't convinced you, we are going to make you not learn anything useful in a foreign language for two more years.
But don't you think that if a foreign language was made compulsory again, people would start to become more aware of the poor quality of language teaching (and consequently a lot more keen to change it)?
(edited 13 years ago)
Persephone.
We make fun of you because you come in your droves to Mediterranean countries and prefer to set up pubs and karaoke bars instead of learning our languages. I have lost count of the amount of the times where I've been asked to translate for stupid dolts who have lived here longer than I have walked upright.
I never understood why you complain about integration when you're some of the biggest culprits around.
/mini rant.
I never understood why you complain about integration when you're some of the biggest culprits around.
/mini rant.
This.
Just stop being lazy bastards. I learned to speak Norwegian to a semi-fluent degree largely on my own (with some help from my grandma) and a semester abroad in Oslo. I learned to read Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse too, again largely from studying workbooks and with some help at university. I'm currently learning Icelandic too, completely autodidactically, and am managing fine. Anyone who says they can't learn a foreign language is lazy, anyone who says it is pointless is a philistine.
Not learning the language before you go abroad is sheer idleness. Just borrow a tape and a phrasebook from the library, listen to the tape in the car a couple of times, read the phrasebook on the plane and you're set to go. It's so easy that anyone who goes abroad without knowing at least the basics should be ashamed.
nulli tertius
Far too much attention is devoted to the rules of grammar and not enough to conversation.
It is nonsense that someone can spend 5 years learning a language and yet not have enough vocabulary to conduct a normal adult conversation in that language.
No, that's how it should be. Vocabulary is something you learn wiu experience and practice. They can't make you learn a hundred words per week, nor could you memorise them.
Grammar is important in learning a language, second after knowing how to conjugate verbs in my opinion. So it's a good think they insist on you having near perfect grammar, and they expect you to work on your own to get vocal - movies, songs, books, whatever.
You can't expect to have as broad a vocabulary as a native with 2-4 hours of lectures a week obviously.
Oh, and lastly, that's how it is outside of the UK too, so blaming your education system really is not a valid argument.
Xurvi
No, that's how it should be. Vocabulary is something you learn wiu experience and practice. They can't make you learn a hundred words per week, nor could you memorise them.
Grammar is important in learning a language, second after knowing how to conjugate verbs in my opinion. So it's a good think they insist on you having near perfect grammar, and they expect you to work on your own to get vocal - movies, songs, books, whatever.
You can't expect to have as broad a vocabulary as a native with 2-4 hours of lectures a week obviously.
Oh, and lastly, that's how it is outside of the UK too, so blaming your education system really is not a valid argument.
Grammar is important in learning a language, second after knowing how to conjugate verbs in my opinion. So it's a good think they insist on you having near perfect grammar, and they expect you to work on your own to get vocal - movies, songs, books, whatever.
You can't expect to have as broad a vocabulary as a native with 2-4 hours of lectures a week obviously.
Oh, and lastly, that's how it is outside of the UK too, so blaming your education system really is not a valid argument.
I respectfully disagree. The whole process of learning how to conjugate verbs is simply making something far more difficult than it need be.
Take French for example. To be able to get by, all I need to know about the verb manger (for example) is three versions: mange, manger (mange with an acute accent sounds identical) and occasionally mangons.
Je mange, tu mange, il mange, on mange, ils mange
J'ai mange (acute), Je vais manger, Vous mangez
Nous mangons
If you just taught kids this rather than making them recite meaningless lists, they would be fluent in a much shorter space of time.
edit: oops
(edited 13 years ago)
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