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25% of Junior Doctors Leave

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    (Original post by _lynx_)
    I can tell you that they are BS - at least the F1 and F2 salaries there.
    Yeh it seemed ridiculously high so I checked on the NHS website and it said:

    F1: 22412
    F2: 27798

    But that is the basic salary, which it says can get an additional supplement on top from 30% - 50%. Maybe the guy at the open day was quoting the highest possible wage i.e. if you work horrible shifts? Not sure, I don't think they'd outright lie though so there must be some logic in there somewhere.
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    Newcastle said that you earn £50,000 after three years of graduation at their open day - something that sounds like a load of crap :dontknow:
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    (Original post by Beska)
    Yeh it seemed ridiculously high so I checked on the NHS website and it said:

    F1: 22412
    F2: 27798

    But that is the basic salary, which it says can get an additional supplement on top from 30% - 50%. Maybe the guy at the open day was quoting the highest possible wage i.e. if you work horrible shifts? Not sure, I don't think they'd outright lie though so there must be some logic in there somewhere.
    I suppose if you work on-call and nights, or perhaps locum as well. Then you might earn around that or perhaps more. But it seems too high for an average.
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    (Original post by Beska)
    Yeh it seemed ridiculously high so I checked on the NHS website and it said:

    F1: 22412
    F2: 27798

    But that is the basic salary, which it says can get an additional supplement on top from 30% - 50%. Maybe the guy at the open day was quoting the highest possible wage i.e. if you work horrible shifts? Not sure, I don't think they'd outright lie though so there must be some logic in there somewhere.
    He probably was, since I think the highest banding you can get is 1.5x the basic, which seems to roughly equate to the numbers you were given.
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    (Original post by Kinkerz)
    You don't need work experience to know that dealing with sick people is mandatory in the vast majority of medical specialties.

    And observing a doctor/other staff dealing with sick people is quite substantially different to dealing with sick people yourself.

    Are you just arguing with me for the sake of it? I agree with all the points you are making. :p:
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    (Original post by Beska)
    Are you just arguing with me for the sake of it? I agree with all the points you are making. :p:
    You were denigrating people leaving medicine as they 'don't like dealing with sick people'. I was giving a viewpoint from a different angle.
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    (Original post by Kinkerz)
    You were denigrating people leaving medicine as they 'don't like dealing with sick people'. I was giving a viewpoint from a different angle.
    I don't think I was being unfair in the slightest. It was a point made by an admissions tutor, people coming to interview and saying "I love helping people, I love people and I love to make them better blah blah" and then leaving after their first GP placement because they can't stand listening to peoples problems. I don't think I am being at all unfair.
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    (Original post by Beska)
    According to the Newcastle admissions tutor, the #2 reason why people drop out (#1 being that they can't cope with the work) is because they realise they don't like sick people. Which is a pretty pathetic reason tbqh.
    Yeah but honestly, who actually likes sick people? :dontknow:

    Don't know about you, but I prefer people to be healthy and free from any suffering or illness.
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    (Original post by W.H.T)
    Yeah but honestly, who actually likes sick people? :dontknow:

    Don't know about you, but I prefer people to be healthy and free from any suffering or illness.
    Fair point. :p: I think his point was more along the lines of 'can't deal with sick people'.
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    (Original post by Beska)
    I don't think I was being unfair in the slightest. It was a point made by an admissions tutor, people coming to interview and saying "I love helping people, I love people and I love to make them better blah blah" and then leaving after their first GP placement because they can't stand listening to peoples problems. I don't think I am being at all unfair.
    The concept of dealing with people, the idea of it, can be very different to what it's actually like. I don't think it's particularly fair to ridicule people because of a choice they made when they were 16/17/18 that may have been on the naive side. Hell, a few posts ago you were indicating that you knew pretty well what it's like to be a doctor, which is naivety of a similar calibre.

    PS: I'm not arguing this point because I want to leave medicine due to my hatred if ill people :p: I just think it's unfair; at least they were being honest. Beats someone sticking with medicine in spite of their distaste for it only to graduate into a difficult job that they hate.
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    Just to put some people straight about pay, this is what I've earned..

    F1 - 21K basic + 50% banding all year = 31k
    F2 - 27k basic + 50% banding all year = 41k
    ST1 - 29K basic + No banding all year = 29k

    I was very lucky to have 50% banded posts all throughout my F1 and F2 but I worked hard, on average 1 in 4 weekends and several runs of nights as well as long days and late shifts. (Some people had no banding all year therefore only got 21k as F1s - this is pretty rare though, usually its something in between)

    This year I am doing no on-calls, nights or weekends but am taking a massive pay cut for it.

    Ok!
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    (Original post by Kinkerz)
    The concept of dealing with people, the idea of it, can be very different to what it's actually like. I don't think it's particularly fair to ridicule people because of a choice they made when they were 16/17/18 that may have been on the naive side. Hell, a few posts ago you were indicating that you knew pretty well what it's like to be a doctor, which is naivety of a similar calibre.

    PS: I'm not arguing this point because I want to leave medicine due to my hatred if ill people :p: I just think it's unfair; at least they were being honest. Beats someone sticking with medicine in spite of their distaste for it only to graduate into a difficult job that they hate.
    Um, I never said I knew what it was like to be a doctor. I know as much as anybody that has done a few hours of work experience. I'm sorry if you inferred otherwise.

    I am just going to have to disagree with you, I think that not knowing that you actually have to deal with sick people is a lack of a realistic insight into the career.
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    (Original post by Beska)
    Um, I never said I knew what it was like to be a doctor. I know as much as anybody that has done a few hours of work experience. I'm sorry if you inferred otherwise.
    "I have no idea how somebody can get through writing a personal statement and attending an interview before realising what they are actually getting themselves in for."

    Fair enough.

    I am just going to have to disagree with you, I think that not knowing that you actually have to deal with sick people is a lack of a realistic insight into the career.
    It is. But I think not fully understanding your own capacity to deal with ill people is a fairly common thing, and that formed the crux of my point, not that people don't understand that you'll have to deal with ill people.
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    (Original post by Kinkerz)
    "I have no idea how somebody can get through writing a personal statement and attending an interview before realising what they are actually getting themselves in for."

    Fair enough.


    It is. But I think not fully understanding your own capacity to deal with ill people is a fairly common thing, and that formed the crux of my point, not that people don't understand that you'll have to deal with ill people.
    But would this be realised during the first term? As you said newbie medics aren't that sure about medicine - it sounds to me more like a complete lack of appreciation for what medicine entails when people drop out citing that reason so early on - at least that's my two cents. And I appreciate that people on this board can talk about this with a lot more confidence and knowledge
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    (Original post by Kinkerz)
    "I have no idea how somebody can get through writing a personal statement and attending an interview before realising what they are actually getting themselves in for."

    Fair enough.


    It is. But I think not fully understanding your own capacity to deal with ill people is a fairly common thing, and that formed the crux of my point, not that people don't understand that you'll have to deal with ill people.
    Yeh I'm sorry, I can see how that could come across wrong. I meant more along the lines of that through the whole application process and thinking about/being questioned about ones work experience, an applicant should have a good idea - the best idea that they could get with work experience - about broadly what medicine is like. I know that a lot of the intricacies one wouldn't get until they're a clinical student or whatever, but generally that medicine is about caring/people profession/long hours/unrealistic public expectations etc. should come through work experience.

    It is. But I think not fully understanding your own capacity to deal with ill people is a fairly common thing, and that formed the crux of my point, not that people don't understand that you'll have to deal with ill people.
    Fair point, I misunderstood. I thought you meant that you couldn't know that medicine was about caring for people through work experience rather than understanding your own capacity. I guess that's something you can't really prepare for, as you say. Thinking about it from that angle, I can understand more why people would want to drop out. The way the admissions tutor made it sound was that it was a terrible and unthinkable reason for dropping out. :p:
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    (Original post by Organ)
    But would this be realised during the first term? As you said newbie medics aren't that sure about medicine - it sounds to me more like a complete lack of appreciation for what medicine entails when people drop out citing that reason so early on - at least that's my two cents. And I appreciate that people on this board can talk about this with a lot more confidence and knowledge
    If they're giving that reason so early on in the course, I'm inclined to say it's not their real reason. If someone wants to drop out, they may give all kinds of reasons, some may be true, some may not.
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    Doctors can stop moaning about their 'low' salary. The taxpayer just paid for their £500,000 education.
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    (Original post by tomheppy)
    Doctors can stop moaning about their 'low' salary. The taxpayer just paid for their £500,000 education.
    Halve that and subtract a bit more. Nobody is really moaning anyway - it was initially a thread as to why 25% of juniors left after FY2.
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    (Original post by tomheppy)
    Doctors can stop moaning about their 'low' salary. The taxpayer just paid for their £500,000 education.
    Aren't you a treat. A misinformed treat, in fact.
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    (Original post by tomheppy)
    Doctors can stop moaning about their 'low' salary. The taxpayer just paid for their £500,000 education.
    Please do tell us more of your opinions.

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