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Interesting proof question.

Note that:
21=21\sqrt 2 - 1 = \sqrt 2 - \sqrt 1
(21)2=98(\sqrt 2 - 1)^2 = \sqrt 9 - \sqrt 8
(21)3=5049(\sqrt 2 - 1 )^3 = \sqrt{50} - \sqrt{49}
(21)4=289288(\sqrt 2 - 1 )^4 = \sqrt{289} - \sqrt{288}
And so on.
So we can hypothesise that, for any positive integer nn, (21)n(\sqrt 2 - 1 )^n can be expressed as the difference of the square roots of two consecutive integers.
How would we prove this?
I've tried things but I can't seem to get anywhere. I don't think I can use induction for this because the consecutive rooted integers seem to have no pattern between them as n increases (at least I haven't spotted it yet). Then again, it is fairly late so I'm not at my sharpest.
Thanks in advance.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Farhan.Hanif93
Note that:
21=21\sqrt 2 - 1 = \sqrt 2 - \sqrt 1
(21)2=98(\sqrt 2 - 1)^2 = \sqrt 9 - \sqrt 8
(21)3=5049(\sqrt 2 - 1 )^3 = \sqrt{50} - \sqrt{49}
(21)4=289288(\sqrt 2 - 1 )^4 = \sqrt{289} - \sqrt{288}
And so on.
So we can hypothesise that, for any positive integer nn, (21)n(\sqrt 2 - 1 )^n can be expressed as the difference of the square roots of two consecutive integers.
How would we prove this?
I've tried things but I can't seem to get anywhere. I don't think I can use induction for this because the consecutive rooted integers seem to have no pattern between them as n increases (at least I haven't spotted it yet). Then again, it is fairly late so I'm not at my sharpest.
Thanks in advance.

Binomial expansion, or proof by induction incorporating a binomial expansion? Something like that might be worth a bash. That way you get to use (Rt2 - 1)^n using your proposition, then multiply it by (Rt2 - 1). See what happens. (I'm doubting that a direct binomial expansion will have something nice pop out ... but you never know!)
Original post by Physics Enemy
Binomial expansion, or proof by induction incorporating a binomial expansion? Something like that might be worth a bash. That way you get to use (Rt2 - 1)^n using your proposition, then multiply it by (Rt2 - 1). See what happens. (I'm doubting that a direct binomial expansion will have something nice pop out ... but you never know!)

Not sure this gets me anywhere of interest when trying to show that it should give a difference of two rooted consecutive integers though since those to integers could be anything (AFAIK anyways).
Original post by Farhan.Hanif93
Not sure this gets me anywhere of interest when trying to show that it should give a difference of two rooted consecutive integers though since those to integers could be anything (AFAIK anyways).

I'll have a go. :smile:
EDIT: I fail ...
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 4
notice that 1 of the numbers in the root is always a square number of a prime ie. 17x17=289 etc.. excluding two or they all are square numbers including 1. now prove it
Original post by iluvmaths
notice that 1 of the numbers in the root is always a square number of a prime ie. 17x17=289 etc.. excluding two or they all are square numbers including 1. now prove it


Hmm.. I spot a 99
:frown:

PS Damn you farhan for posting interesting Maths on when I'm trying to do Analysis due in for tomorrow. Must. Close. TSR.
Reply 6
well isnt 99= sqrt(99^2). and 99^2 -2(77^2)=1. which imples that only one of the numbers in one of the square roots is a perfect square.

btw.. anotha thing i noticed... (sqrt(2) -1)^(2n) = sqrt{x^2} -qrt({x^2} -1) and ... (sqrt(2)-1)^(2n+1) = sqrt((x^2)+1) -sqrt(x^2)
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 7
infact, ive just discovered something totally new, if you try this with the root 3, you get a pattern soo beautiful...

(sqrt3)-1= sqrt3 - sqrt1 3-1=2

(sqrt(3) -1)^2 = sqrt16 -sqrt12 16-12=4

(sqrt(3)-1)^3 = sqrt108 -sqrt100 108-100=8

as you see, the differences between the square roots are all increasing by a power of 2.

i.e for (sqrt(3) -1)^n, the difference between the 2 numbers in the squares is 2^n.

isnt this beautiful!!! now lets prove it..
(edited 13 years ago)
iluvmaths, you are very impressive!
EDIT: Hypothesis; [Sqrt(r) - 1]^n = Subtraction of 2 sq roots, difference between the integers in the sq roots is (r-1)^n.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 9
Original post by Farhan.Hanif93
Note that:
21=21\sqrt 2 - 1 = \sqrt 2 - \sqrt 1
(21)2=98(\sqrt 2 - 1)^2 = \sqrt 9 - \sqrt 8
(21)3=5049(\sqrt 2 - 1 )^3 = \sqrt{50} - \sqrt{49}
(21)4=289288(\sqrt 2 - 1 )^4 = \sqrt{289} - \sqrt{288}
And so on.
So we can hypothesise that, for any positive integer nn, (21)n(\sqrt 2 - 1 )^n can be expressed as the difference of the square roots of two consecutive integers.
How would we prove this?
I've tried things but I can't seem to get anywhere. I don't think I can use induction for this because the consecutive rooted integers seem to have no pattern between them as n increases (at least I haven't spotted it yet). Then again, it is fairly late so I'm not at my sharpest.
Thanks in advance.
(1-sqrt(2))^n can be written as x + y sqrt(2) (*) with x y integers.
But then (1+sqrt(2))^n = x - y sqrt 2. Multiply the two together and we have (-1)^n = x^2 - 2y^2. Since we can rewrite x + y sqrt(2) as sqrt(x^2) + sqrt(2y^2) the result follows.

Note also that by considering what happens when you multiply (*) by (1 - sqrt 2) you can get a Fibonnaci like relationship between successive values of x and y. (so you can in fact find a pattern in x and y).
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 10
Original post by DFranklin
(1-sqrt(2))^n can be written as x + y sqrt(2) (*) with x y integers.
But then (1+sqrt(2)) = x - y sqrt 2. Multiply the two together and we have (-1)^n = x^2 - 2y^2. Since we can rewrite x + y sqrt(2) as sqrt(x^2) + sqrt(2y^2) the result follows.

Note also that by considering what happens when you multiply (*) by (1 - sqrt 2) you can get a Fibonnaci like relationship between successive values of x and y. (so you can in fact find a pattern in x and y).


now this is beautiful... i realised that sqrt2 -1 is equal to x +ysqrt2 but (sqrt2 +1)^n = x-ysqrt2 is wonderful.. but.. i didnt realise that (sqrt2 -1)^n(sqrt2 +1)^n = (-1)^n... wonderfull Dfranklin.. this is why u went to cambridge...

now this impressive
(edited 13 years ago)
(1 - sqrt 2)(1 + sqrt 2) = -1.
Reply 12
Original post by DFranklin
(1 - sqrt 2)(1 + sqrt 2) = -1.


thanks jus figured that out.. kinda stupid for me to ask.. pretty late btw. :biggrin:
Reply 13
Original post by Physics Enemy
iluvmaths, you are very impressive!
EDIT: Hypothesis; [Sqrt(r) - 1]^n = Subtraction of 2 sq roots, difference between the integers in the sq roots is (r-1)^n.


this is what we all need to prove
Original post by iluvmaths
now this is beautiful... i realised that sqrt2 -1 is equal to x +ysqrt2 but (sqrt2 +1)^n = x-ysqrt2 is wonderful.. but.. i didnt realise that (sqrt2 -1)^n(sqrt2 +1)^n = (-1)^n... wonderfull Dfranklin.. this is why u went to cambridge...

now this impressive

It was a typo, he meant (1 - Sqrt2)^n = x + ySqrt2, and similarly (1 + Sqrt2)^n = x - ySqrt2.
As (1 - Sqrt2)(1 + Sqrt2) = -1, then (1 - Sqrt2)^n.(1 + Sqrt2)^n = (-1)^n and so on ...
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 15
Original post by Physics Enemy
It was a typo, he meant (1 - Sqrt2)^n = x + ySqrt2, and similarly (1 + Sqrt2)^n = x - ySqrt2.
As (1 - Sqrt2)(1 + Sqrt2) = -1, then (1 - Sqrt2)^n.(1 + Sqrt2)^n = (-1)^n and so on ...


well yeah, btw, we need to be proving the hypothesis... its just beautiful
Original post by iluvmaths
well yeah, btw, we need to be proving the hypothesis... its just beautiful

You guys can, I'm too thick for that, and I'm off to bed. :tongue:
Reply 17
Original post by Physics Enemy
iluvmaths, you are very impressive!
EDIT: Hypothesis; [Sqrt(r) - 1]^n = Subtraction of 2 sq roots, difference between the integers in the sq roots is (r-1)^n.


Proof by Induction - I think



Hopefully there are no mistakes there ... :unsure: (although the argument is ordered slightly weirdly - meh, it's very late)
A variation of this type of induction definitely works for the general case in the OP, though, if one wanted to use induction for that.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 18
Original post by Farhan.Hanif93
Note that:
21=21\sqrt 2 - 1 = \sqrt 2 - \sqrt 1
(21)2=98(\sqrt 2 - 1)^2 = \sqrt 9 - \sqrt 8
(21)3=5049(\sqrt 2 - 1 )^3 = \sqrt{50} - \sqrt{49}
(21)4=289288(\sqrt 2 - 1 )^4 = \sqrt{289} - \sqrt{288}
And so on.
So we can hypothesise that, for any positive integer nn, (21)n(\sqrt 2 - 1 )^n can be expressed as the difference of the square roots of two consecutive integers.
How would we prove this?
I've tried things but I can't seem to get anywhere. I don't think I can use induction for this because the consecutive rooted integers seem to have no pattern between them as n increases (at least I haven't spotted it yet). Then again, it is fairly late so I'm not at my sharpest.
Thanks in advance.


http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?p=27353555&highlight=
Very nice.

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