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Why I disagree with Help for Heroes

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    (Original post by Katt-x)
    I competely agree with you. Whilst I do feel for those injured whilst in battle they should never have been there in the first place. What gives Britain the right to decide we need to 'fix' other countries, it's not like we are perfect ourself.
    we dont, america think they have the right to 'fix' other countries, our government just kisses arse and hops on the bandwagon
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    (Original post by MissMoanie)
    Why don't you just drop it with your stupid comments now OP? You are offensive. And don't tell me about freedom of speech, if you had a decent arguement then I wouldn't mind, but you don't. You are stupid and immature and I hope one day you don't need the help of a soldier...Cos he shouldn't help you. But he still would. Because they are Heroes. Go take your silly remarks elsewhere.
    I'm sorry if you're offended, but I'm not going to retract my comments. Your personal involvement in the war gives you a different outlook to myself, fair enough. So say I have "stupid comments" and "silly remarks" is a bit petty. I think you're assuming that I'm toting this to be controversial. I can empathise with those who I lack respect for, and I empathise for you and your boyfriend. I don't wish anyone to come home maimed and not receive help, but I think the channels currently in place are insufficient in purpose and reasoning.

    (Original post by Mighty Moe)
    You're talking crap. The fundamental is that you're a bit of a prick.
    Nice one.
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    of course the state should look after the wounded in a sufficient way and groups like H4H should not need to exist.

    However that is not the case and the wounded do not receive sufficient support, thus the need for the group.
    I mean, Oxfam or save the children shouldn't need to exist but circumstances dictate they do.

    And as someone with a large amount of family members in the armed forces (RAF), let me tell you, being the in forces does not automatically mean you condone the war. Far from it in fact. You can never truly understand the matter til you've been there yourself and experienced the horrors of war on a personal level, not spoon fed to you from your TV or computer.

    Some of the most avid opposition to the war comes from those who fought in it.
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    (Original post by Glenbot3000)
    Basically, I just wanted to see if my opinion is, in fact, completely ludicrous, or if it bares credence. By nature, I am far-left in ideology, however my peers find my discussion of this topic "disgusting".

    So, why do I disagree with this appeal? Foremost, I believe that anyone who joins this war condones it. Secondly, if one man is to kill another, regardless of circumstance, I see him only as a murderer. Finally, the State sends these people to war, the State should ensure they are comfortable in return for their compliance and effort.

    Discuss.
    I agree that the state should be funding the cost of rehabilitating these people. fact is, they don't and we cannot just abandon them after they have given so much.
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    (Original post by Allyx)
    I don't know what Godwins Law is,sorry.
    And yet despite a vast compendium of human knowledge which the internet has placed – quite literally – at your fingertips, you're nonetheless content to blithely profess ignorance of something rather than spend the half-minute necessary to look it up.

    If it were even half as amusing as it is depressing, I'd be laughing too hard to type coherently. As it is, I despair of your ilk.
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    (Original post by thisisnew)
    How about somebody who wades into a school full of young children with an automatic rifle and starts shooting indiscriminately. Would you take the opportunity to shoot and kill him or would you ask him to see the error of his ways and to seek help?

    Diplomacy with the Taliban? Come on... And how was the warfare barbaric? Unfortunately civilians have died but the rules of engagement have since been tightened which makes it even harder for them to pick out insurgents who meld back into the public. You know, the Taliban don't wear bright pink t-shirts and wave flags... They practically use the petrified civilians around them as shields.
    I would.

    (Original post by Gandhi)
    An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
    ~300,000 civilians have died in the Afghani and Iraqi conflicts. ~40,000 insurgents have died.

    (Original post by Drewski)
    It should, but it isn't. Until it is, why shouldn't others make up the difference?

    And numbers can say anything. 1 million marched against Iraq, true.


    59 million didn't.
    You're completely removing context from the fact that 1 million people felt so passionately that they would take to the streets, does not mean 1 million people disagree with the war. I wasn't at the protest, but I wholly disagreed.
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    (Original post by Profesh)
    And yet despite a vast compendium of human knowledge which the internet has placed – quite literally – at your fingertips, you're nonetheless content to blithely profess ignorance of something rather than spend the half-minute necessary to look it up. If it were half as amusing as it is depressing, I'd be laughing too hard to type this.
    This was featured on a programme recently, though I don't remember which. It may have been QI. :holmes:
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    (Original post by Glenbot3000)
    I would.
    YOu would what kill the guy or ask him to change his ways?
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    If you don't agree with H4H then don't donate - there's no need for you to mouth off about something you clearly know very little about. You're essentially saying that those who are injured in current conflicts should be left to rot, this makes you a pretty despicable person in my book.

    I happen to think Help for Heroes is a very worthy, important and relevant cause.
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    What's heroic about being shipped into wars that are not only condemned around the world but also back at home? What's heroic about fighting in wars where you don't understand why you're there, or why it's you who must police the streets you've bombed? What's heroic about fighting in a country that's no threat to you?

    "They died for their country"

    During the Great wars, 14 year old boys would try to muster up the face of an older man just to enlist into the army. Some were sent back home gutted, and others got their wish running around with rifles because they wanted to join in a great struggle in which the entire country was behind. Most these soldiers nowadays joined the Army Forces for a variety of reasons, but I doubt dying for Queen and country was high on that list. Incidentally, those who have come back seem to be amongst the most mild mannered and well-level headed when it comes to their views on these wars, whereas the 'blogosphere' is filled with keyboard patriots who are one day political scholars and the next day military generals giving expert opinion on why we should/can bomb country X, Y and Z; and yet I doubt they'd be found within a 10mile radius of a recruitment centre themselves!

    It's not right to place respect and the title of 'hero' on some purely based on the uniform they wear. What defines them is their persona and character, and this engineered sense of nationalism/patriotism that has inflicted some of us in recent years, where we choose to ignore any relevant and moral context, blindly herald this as that, and so on, undermines some of the most deserved and genuine heroes in the past who gave up their lives whilst not drawing a single shed of blood themselves. Heroes are men, women and children who every individual - regardless of race, gender or background - can bow their head to and recognise the inherent human quality of said person.

    That isn't to say none of those serving in the Armed Forces do not deserve to be named as heroes, there are some who are amazingly good-hearted and brave individuals, but a random uniform losing a limb does not make him a hero. He is someone who lost a limb in the war. Fighting wars doesn't make you heroic, it's the choices you make in life and the reasons why that do; it's in the person in you, not what you wear.
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    (Original post by Glenbot3000)

    You're completely removing context from the fact that 1 million people felt so passionately that they would take to the streets, does not mean 1 million people disagree with the war. I wasn't at the protest, but I wholly disagreed.
    Nor does it mean that the majority disagreed with the war. Your argument is sadly flawed.
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    (Original post by Glenbot3000)
    You're completely removing context from the fact that 1 million people felt so passionately that they would take to the streets, does not mean 1 million people disagree with the war. I wasn't at the protest, but I wholly disagreed.
    My point was that numbers don't tell the whole story.


    And the other point is that you can never expect the public to make an accurate decision - as they're not the ones in possession of the full facts. As it turns out [from HINDSIGHT, things we know now that didn't know then] neither were the Gov, but it is our job to trust that they know what is right, after all, that's why we gave them our vote in the first place.

    War and conflict are never wanted, but sometimes they are all that is left. I was in the RAF, I was fortunate in that I never had to see fighting. I hope that the friends of mine who are still in can go through their career without seeing it too, I know that if I were in for 18yrs I'd be hoping that I never see 'active' service.
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    (Original post by Meus)
    x
    Fair.

    It's worth noting, however, that none of the men who recieve this help would ever call themselves heroes.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Nor does it mean that the majority disagreed with the war. Your argument is sadly flawed.
    I wouldn't be surprised if most that supported the war couldn't write on a single piece of paper explaining their reasons

    (Original post by Drewski)
    Fair.

    It's worth noting, however, that none of the men who recieve this help would ever call themselves heroes.
    An excellent point, which is why I gave my nod to them.
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    (Original post by ryan051991)
    YOu would what kill the guy or ask him to change his ways?
    Ask him to change his ways. Killing him would solve nothing.

    (Original post by Meus)
    What's heroic about being shipped into wars that are not only condemned around the world but also back at home? What's heroic about fighting in wars where you don't understand why you're there, or why it's you who must police the streets you've bombed? What's heroic about fighting in a country that's no threat to you?

    "They died for their country"

    During the Great wars, 14 year old boys would try to muster up the face of an older man just to enlist into the army. Some were sent back home gutted, and others got their wish running around with rifles because they wanted to join in a great struggle in which the entire country was behind. Most these soldiers nowadays joined the Army Forces for a variety of reasons, but I doubt dying for Queen and country was high on that list. Incidentally, those who have come back seem to be amongst the most mild mannered and well-level headed when it comes to their views on these wars, whereas the 'blogosphere' is filled with keyboard patriots who are one day political scholars and the next day military generals giving expert opinion on why we should/can bomb country X, Y and Z; and yet I doubt they'd enlist to be on those front lines incidentally couldn't be found within a 10mile radius of a recruitment centre!

    It's not right to place respect and the title of 'hero' on some purely based on the uniform they wear. What defines them is their persona and character, and this engineered sense of nationalism/patriotism that has inflicted some of us in recent years, where we choose to ignore any relevant and moral context, blindly herald this as that, and so on, undermines some of the most deserved and genuine heroes in the past who gave up their lives whilst not drawing a single shed of blood themselves. Heroes are men, women and children who every individual - regardless of race, gender or background - can bow their head to and recognise the inherent human quality of said person.

    That isn't to say none of those serving in the Armed Forces do not deserve to be named as heroes, there are some who are amazingly good-hearted and brave individuals, but a random uniform losing a limb does not make him a hero. He is someone who lost a limb in the war. Fighting wars doesn't make you heroic, it's the choices you make in life and the reasons why that do; it's in the person in you, not what you wear.
    Couldn't have articulate it better myself. I can tell you don't fully agree with my point, but I fully respect your consideration.
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    (Original post by Glenbot3000)
    Ask him to change his ways. Killing him would solve nothing.
    And when he refuses to talk to you? When he attempts to kill you, when he carries on his ceaseless violence against the other people present? When he refuses to accept you have any right whatsoever to question him, let alone ask him to stop?

    What then? You walk away?


    Like it or not - and I know you don't so I'm not trying to change your mind - there are people out there who won't be reasoned with or stopped by discussions. We are not asking you to go out and stop them. Merely to accept that we need people who can.
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    (Original post by Glenbot3000)
    Ahaha, I'm aware of the Nationalist undercurrent apparent on TSR. Don't worry.
    As much as a nationalist undercurrent as a far-left liberal undercurrent.
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    (Original post by Glenbot3000)
    Ask him to change his ways. Killing him would solve nothing.
    are you thick ?
    It would save the lives of everyone in that building.
    That hardly constitutes as "nothing"

    Try reasoning with madmen. It tends not to end well.
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    to be honest, almost everyone here agrees on the fundamentals.

    1- that iraq and afghanistan shouldnt be happening.

    2- however, they are, and so those who are wounded or traumatized there deserve help from the state

    3- the state doesnt provide this help, hence the existence of charities like Help for heroes, which SHOULDNT be needed, but ARE.

    apart from the fact that the thread starter considers soliders on a par with murderers.... which im suprised isnt being debated more to be honest!
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    I HATE help for 'heroes'
    these men on the front men know what they are getting in to, the government just wants to glorify the war
    and the foot soliders are often( not always) really uneducated i.e STUPID
Updated: May 21, 2012
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