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The Definitional Thread

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    (Original post by Ineluctable)
    Atheism rules out the option of God existing, anything that departs from this is agnosticism.



    I would say that not believing in something existing as opposed to denying its existence is agnosticism not atheism.
    Agnosticism is not a belief in of itself, it is a measure of certainty. You can have agnostic theists as much as you can have agnostic atheists, it just means you aren't absolutely sure that you are correct.
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    (Original post by karateworm)
    What do Atheists have a belief in?

    Nothing.

    There's no faith to be had, Atheism is the default position of mankind.
    I've always thought early man would naturally view the Sun as our modern day version of 'God', but yeah i know what you mean
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    (Original post by screenager2004)
    The dictionary would disagree with you.

    Lack of belief is not denial. Denial implies god actually exists.
    Lack is a suspension of belief, which is agnosticism
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    (Original post by Gofre)
    Agnosticism is not a belief in of itself, it is a measure of certainty. You can have agnostic theists as much as you can have agnostic atheists, it just means you aren't absolutely sure that you are correct.
    Agnosticism and atheism are different things. Even your prophet Dawkins would concede as much
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    (Original post by Ineluctable)
    Not really. Leprechauns are not implicated as an ultimate reality.
    So atheists have to have faith that god doesn't exist because:
    1. They can't disprove him (your original argument); AND
    2. He is implicated as an ultimate reality (not clear what this even means)?

    I'm not sure why god being part of an 'ultimate' reality means that not believing in him is now a faith position.

    If my leprechauns are implicated as an ultimate reality does the fact you can't disprove them become a faith position?
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    (Original post by Ineluctable)
    Not really. Leprechauns are not implicated as an ultimate reality.
    Fine, it's like saying that not particularly believing you're actually an infant in the womb having a crazy dream is a "faith position".

    Sorry ineluctable, but attaching yourself firmly to one version of reality (eg: there is definitely a God and he definitely did this, and he definitely is like this, and that means I definitely have to do such and such) without requiring any convincing evidence other than "how I feel" (and in fact, ignoring a great deal about how the universe actually appears to tick along) is quite obviously a greater position of faith than.. not thinking like that.

    You must know this. Stop going on. Stop trying to "catch out" atheists on (incorrect) technicalities. Also stop using incorrect definitions of atheism and agnosticism to try to falsely further your arguments.
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    An Atheist Professor of Philosophy was speaking to his Class on the problem Science has with God. He asked one of his new Christian students to stand.


    To all the atheists, read this and think about it: (P.S: Im not a Christian but a muslim, but the story still makes ALOT of sense)
    Professor: You are a Christian, aren’t you, son?
    Student: Yes, sir.


    Professor: So, you believe in God?
    Student: Absolutely, sir.


    Professor: Is God good?
    Student: Sure.


    Professor: My brother died of cancer, even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn’t. How is God good, then? Hmm?


    (Student was silent)


    Professor: You can’t answer, can you? Let’s start again, young fella. Is God good?
    Student: Yes.


    Professor: Is Satan good?
    Student: No.


    Professor: Where does Satan come from?
    Student: From.. God.


    Professor: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
    Student: Yes.


    Professor: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it? And God did make everything. Correct?
    Student: Yes.


    Professor: So who created evil?
    (Student didn’t answer)


    Professor: Is there sickness? Immortality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?
    Student: Yes, sir.


    Professor: So, who created them?
    (Student had no answer)


    Professor: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son.. have you ever seen God?
    Student: No, sir.


    Professor: Tell us if you have ever heard your God.
    Student: No, sir.


    Professor: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God, for that matter?
    Student: No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.


    Professor: Yet you still believe in Him?
    Student: Yes.


    Professor: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, Science says your God doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?
    Student: Nothing. I only have my Faith.


    Professor: Yes, Faith. And that is the problem Science has.
    Student: Professor, is there such a thing as Heat?


    Professor: Yes.
    Student: And is there such a thing as Cold?


    Professor: Yes.
    Student: No, sir, there isn’t.

    (The Lecture Theatre became very quiet with this turn of events)


    Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 Degrees below Zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of Heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.


    (There was a pon-drop silence in the Lecture Theatre)


    Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
    Professor: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?


    Student: You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have Low Light, Normal Light, Bright Light, Flashing Light… But if you have No Light constantly, you have nothing and it’s called Darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it is, You would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?


    Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man?
    Student: Sir, my point is, your Philosophical Premise is flawed.


    Professor: Flawed? Can you explain how?
    Student: Sir, you are working on the Premise of Duality. You argue there is Life and then there is Death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, Science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?


    Professor: If you are referring to the Natural Evolutionary Process, yes of course, I do.
    Student: Have you ever observed Evolution with your own eyes, sir?

    (The professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going)


    Student: Since no one has ever observed the Process of Evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a Scientist but a Preacher?

    (The class was in uproar)


    Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain?
    (The class broke out into laughter)


    Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? .. No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable and Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures?

    (The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable)
    Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on Faith, son.


    Student: That is it, sir.. exactly! The link between man and God is Faith. That is all that keeps things alive and moving!

    The student's name was Albert Einstein. Brilliant.
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    (Original post by CondensedMilk)
    Saw this in the I-Soc thread:

    Silence is the best reply to a fool.” - Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib
    why on earth would you quote someone who didnt have the sense to change their name from Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib
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    (Original post by Ineluctable)
    Agnosticism and atheism are different things. Even your prophet Dawkins would concede as much
    Yes. Duh. That's the point people are trying to make to you. They're not different degrees of the same thing... they refer to totally different spectrums. "Whether I think God exists" (atheism) and "Whether or not I think you can have certainty about whether God exists" (agnosticism).

    Being a father and being a builder are different things. You can still be both.
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    (Original post by Ineluctable)
    Agnosticism and atheism are different things. Even your prophet Dawkins would concede as much
    Certainly they are, but they aren't what you suggest.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
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    (Original post by Daniyal Jangda)
    An Atheist Professor of Philosophy was speaking to his Class on the problem Science has with God. He asked one of his new Christian students to stand.


    To all the atheists, read this and think about it: (P.S: Im not a Christian but a muslim, but the story still makes ALOT of sense)
    Professor: You are a Christian, aren’t you, son?
    Student: Yes, sir.


    Professor: So, you believe in God?
    Student: Absolutely, sir.


    Professor: Is God good?
    Student: Sure.


    Professor: My brother died of cancer, even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn’t. How is God good, then? Hmm?


    (Student was silent)


    Professor: You can’t answer, can you? Let’s start again, young fella. Is God good?
    Student: Yes.


    Professor: Is Satan good?
    Student: No.


    Professor: Where does Satan come from?
    Student: From.. God.


    Professor: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
    Student: Yes.


    Professor: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it? And God did make everything. Correct?
    Student: Yes.


    Professor: So who created evil?
    (Student didn’t answer)


    Professor: Is there sickness? Immortality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?
    Student: Yes, sir.


    Professor: So, who created them?
    (Student had no answer)


    Professor: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son.. have you ever seen God?
    Student: No, sir.


    Professor: Tell us if you have ever heard your God.
    Student: No, sir.


    Professor: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God, for that matter?
    Student: No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.


    Professor: Yet you still believe in Him?
    Student: Yes.


    Professor: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, Science says your God doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?
    Student: Nothing. I only have my Faith.


    Professor: Yes, Faith. And that is the problem Science has.
    Student: Professor, is there such a thing as Heat?


    Professor: Yes.
    Student: And is there such a thing as Cold?


    Professor: Yes.
    Student: No, sir, there isn’t.

    (The Lecture Theatre became very quiet with this turn of events)


    Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 Degrees below Zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of Heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.


    (There was a pon-drop silence in the Lecture Theatre)


    Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
    Professor: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?


    Student: You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have Low Light, Normal Light, Bright Light, Flashing Light… But if you have No Light constantly, you have nothing and it’s called Darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it is, You would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?


    Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man?
    Student: Sir, my point is, your Philosophical Premise is flawed.


    Professor: Flawed? Can you explain how?
    Student: Sir, you are working on the Premise of Duality. You argue there is Life and then there is Death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, Science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?


    Professor: If you are referring to the Natural Evolutionary Process, yes of course, I do.
    Student: Have you ever observed Evolution with your own eyes, sir?

    (The professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going)


    Student: Since no one has ever observed the Process of Evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a Scientist but a Preacher?

    (The class was in uproar)


    Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain?
    (The class broke out into laughter)


    Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? .. No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable and Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures?

    (The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable)
    Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on Faith, son.


    Student: That is it, sir.. exactly! The link between man and God is Faith. That is all that keeps things alive and moving!

    The student's name was Albert Einstein. Brilliant.
    It seems unlikely that this is true, for a number of reasons.
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    (Original post by Ineluctable)
    People like me, who are almost certain of God's existence, admit that they cannot 100% prove it, but faith closes this gap.

    Similarly, atheists feel that they are certain, but they cannot disprove God, so they have to have faith in asserting that He does not exist. Surely any atheist wanting to avoid faith should instead be an agnostic?
    You're boring everyone with these constant anti-atheism threads, they're all pretty much the same thing everytime, atheism doesn't make sense, atheism is a contradiction, atheism is absurd blah blah blah, we get it, you don't like atheists. Haven't you got anything else to do or is your life that boring that you have to make the same thread every day :rolleyes:

    Oh and I'm almost certain God doesn't exist cause while I can't disprove his existence, I feel that you do need at least some evidence that something exists for it to exist and the fact of the matter is that evidence just isn't there. As I'm sure has already been said, there are plenty of fictitious beings that you can't disprove, therefore your argument is worthless (as always).
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    (Original post by Ineluctable)
    Agnosticism and atheism are different things. Even your prophet Dawkins would concede as much
    I never said they weren't different things, I said they weren't mutually exclusive. Agnosticism means you are unsure of gods existence, this can be true of atheists or theists. It is not some sort of middle ground position, it's simply a way of describing what degree of certainty you hold your belief. Seriously, go read a dictionary.

    And referring to Dawkins as our prophet just makes you look even more childish than your lack of knowledge on the subject does.
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    (Original post by Daniyal Jangda)
    Student: So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable and Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures?

    The student's name was Albert Einstein. Brilliant.
    Honestly, the person that wrote that garbage does not understand science. Knowing that, how likely is it that the 'student' is AE?

    urban legend - http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp
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    (Original post by lubus)
    why on earth would you quote someone who didnt have the sense to change their name from Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib
    "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance."

    Gain some wealth.
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    (Original post by Ineluctable)
    People like me, who are almost certain of God's existence, admit that they cannot 100% prove it, but faith closes this gap.

    Similarly, atheists feel that they are certain, but they cannot disprove God, so they have to have faith in asserting that He does not exist. Surely any atheist wanting to avoid faith should instead be an agnostic?
    Why do you keep regurgitating the same threads?
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    (Original post by skeanos)
    Why do you keep regurgitating the same threads?
    I haven't explored this point before....
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    (Original post by Daniyal Jangda)
    -made-up story
    Albert Einstein never said that, its just a pro-religious meme, invented by a theist to include a stupid (not to mention bullying and unprofessional) atheist professor who produces easily defeatable arguments.

    I may as well invent my own ridiculous never-happened fake argument comeback and give the atheist character all of the trump cards.

    Theist professor: Ha atheist student, you crazy and evil and stupid. Why you not believe God?

    Atheist student: Because there is no evidence to do so, sir. Additionally, an omnipotent benevolent being doesn't seem to fit in with currently available evidence on how the universe works. Tell me sir, why do you believe in God and not fungus the bogeyman?

    Theist professor: Me dumm dumm God blah.

    -Other students cheer atheist student, professor loses argument etc-


    That student was Jesus.
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    (Original post by Ineluctable)
    I haven't explored this point before....
    That's not true is it :rolleyes:

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show....php?t=1710561
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    (Original post by Ineluctable)
    I haven't explored this point before....
    Yes you have and its becoming annoying. Your just finding different ways of saying atheists have faith which you have repeaed many many times.

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