Top Universities for Computer Science?
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Original post by Edwin Okli
I don't seem to get this impression at all. I went to the Think Computer Science 2010 conference in Cambridge and they really created the concept of how broad Computer Science is regardless of the university you go to, but of course, that was their job.
It's a poor representation, to be honest. All the university open days and subject conferences all say "X Y and Z are exciting growth areas", "Computer Science is a wide field", "Loads of jobs" etc. but when you actually start the course, you'll often find it's near endless programming pretty much irrespective of where you go.
Software engineering salaries are generally quite low because a) the labour market is saturated and b) very few software engineers are of decent calibre. Both factors lead to reduced salaries across the board - one of my old classmates is earning a whopping £19k despite being pretty sharp, and the company he works at opened two programming roles recently and one got something silly like 43 applications from new CS graduates, and only something like 10 from more experienced candidates looking to move jobs.
My point is that there are too many people out there who have average programming ability and precious little else in the way of knowledge or practical skills, yet a lot of universities gloss over this and don't listen to what employers actually want.
In terms of course structure, I can't say that I'm put off by programming since it interests me probably more that a few aspects of Computer Science but I'm also fond of the mathematical aspects. 
That's fine
Whatever works for you I guess. What I've said previously is about 60% truth, 40% personal opinion and I don't intend it to form a basis of career advice for you.[QUOTE="BigV;29495837"]So would you take something like Forensic Computing from a expoly over a straight up Computer Science degree from an older Uni?
Also, why do all these places teach Java? Is C not popular anymore?
Loads of places do both. Java is favoured because it's cross platform pretty much by default as well as being very quick to get up and running. It's a great way to get object-oriented concepts across to new students who may not have done too much programming before, and you don't have to worry about memory management or other nasty things like that. It also has built-in libraries and classes to do pretty much everything to some level, so it's a good all-rounder.
C/C++ is generally kept for a bit later unless you're doing something more engineering based.
Original post by ch0llima
It's a poor representation, to be honest. All the university open days and subject conferences all say "X Y and Z are exciting growth areas", "Computer Science is a wide field", "Loads of jobs" etc. but when you actually start the course, you'll often find it's near endless programming pretty much irrespective of where you go.
Software engineering salaries are generally quite low because a) the labour market is saturated and b) very few software engineers are of decent calibre. Both factors lead to reduced salaries across the board - one of my old classmates is earning a whopping £19k despite being pretty sharp, and the company he works at opened two programming roles recently and one got something silly like 43 applications from new CS graduates, and only something like 10 from more experienced candidates looking to move jobs.
Software engineering salaries are generally quite low because a) the labour market is saturated and b) very few software engineers are of decent calibre. Both factors lead to reduced salaries across the board - one of my old classmates is earning a whopping £19k despite being pretty sharp, and the company he works at opened two programming roles recently and one got something silly like 43 applications from new CS graduates, and only something like 10 from more experienced candidates looking to move jobs.
I was convinced the Computer Science field was quite well paid. I think I read somewhere that it was 2nd to Law and Medicine but I suppose the statistics are skewed by high salaries.
Original post by Edwin Okli
I was convinced the Computer Science field was quite well paid. I think I read somewhere that it was 2nd to Law and Medicine but I suppose the statistics are skewed by high salaries.
You need to be careful of what you refer to as the Computer Science field. Hammering out standard lines of code to hook into libraries/perform menial tasks is generally not seen as part of the computer science field. E.g. making a audio/video converter which hooks into FFmpeg, while useful, is not really computer science.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Chrosson
You need to be careful of what you refer to as the Computer Science field. Hammering out standard lines of code to hook into libraries/perform menial tasks is generally not seen as part of the computer science field. E.g. making a audio/video converter which hooks into FFmpeg, while useful, is not really computer science.
Can you explain what actually is referred to as the Computer Science field then?
Original post by Chrosson
You need to be careful of what you refer to as the Computer Science field. Hammering out standard lines of code to hook into libraries/perform menial tasks is generally not seen as part of the computer science field. E.g. making a audio/video converter which hooks into FFmpeg, while useful, is not really computer science.
Just out of interest, what and where are you studying and what do you plan to do once finished?
Original post by Artifical_Neuron
Original post by Artifical_Neuron
Can you explain what actually is referred to as the Computer Science field then?
What New Scientist classes as Computer Science jobs.
This thread seems to have evolved into a "why not to be a programmer discussion". I don't doubt that there are some mediocre graduate programmers but surely a good university course is supposed to (almost) ensure good (and fulfilling) job. I certainly know that when during the XBOX kinect development lecture I wasn't bored by any means; it really did open my eyes to the beautiful future of Computer Science.
Original post by BigV
Blah, you guys are really putting me off CS right now! From what you are saying a CS degree (even from a decent Uni) is going to be about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
Perhaps I should take Sociology or something instead...... at least that is easy.
Perhaps I should take Sociology or something instead...... at least that is easy.
Try not to base a decision affecting the rest of your life on some anecdotes. Computer science is (in my experience from what companies say they want) more employable than engineering. I don't personally know about job saturation, but you might want to consider how saturated the job market is for Sociology graduates.
Computer Science is by no means a useless degree.
Original post by Artifical_Neuron
Can you explain what actually is referred to as the Computer Science field then?
My perception of 'Computer Science' is closely linked to innovation. Obviously, everyone has different definitions so this is just my thoughts here. If we consider how many audio/video converters are available or how many businesses use database applications, that's what I wouldn't consider computer science to be.
To me, if you were working in (say) Intel helping to move processors to the next level or in Microsoft working on new products, that would be Computer Science. These obviously aren't as glamorous as they sound - as ch0llima correctly pointed out, they do involve a lot of programming. But it isn't just bashing out the lines of code, it actually requires thought and insight.
Original post by ch0llima
Just out of interest, what and where are you studying and what do you plan to do once finished?
Please, if you think I'm wrong at any point call me out on it. I'm just trying to help these guys with misconceptions which I think they have. It may well be the case I'm the one with misconceptions and I'm talking out of my posterior.
I don't like making this kinda info public really. If you really want to know, PM me (from the way you've phrased this you seem to have a suspicion already...putting a guess into your pm would be interesting from my pov
).Don't get me wrong, I have done a considerable amount of programming in Java and C++ and I certainly don't want to end as a software engineer so I am by no means recommending that anyone should become a programmer. I just wanted to point out that unfortunately 90% of the university CS courses in the UK aim to create software engineers or at least that showed my research when I was selecting my five university choices.
So which are in your opinion the universities which do not only teach you simple coding, but also give you better opportunity in the more interesting CS fields?
For obvious reasons, you can exclude Oxbridge and Imperial.
I just wanted to point out that unfortunately 90% of the university CS courses in the UK aim to create software engineers or at least that showed my research when I was selecting my five university choices. So which are in your opinion the universities which do not only teach you simple coding, but also give you better opportunity in the more interesting CS fields?
For obvious reasons, you can exclude Oxbridge and Imperial.
Original post by Artifical_Neuron
Don't get me wrong, I have done a considerable amount of programming in Java and C++ and I certainly don't want to end as a software engineer so I am by no means recommending that anyone should become a programmer. I just wanted to point out that unfortunately 90% of the university CS courses in the UK aim to create software engineers or at least that showed my research when I was selecting my five university choices.
So which are in your opinion the universities which do not only teach you simple coding, but also give you better opportunity in the more interesting CS fields?
For obvious reasons, you can exclude Oxbridge and Imperial.
I just wanted to point out that unfortunately 90% of the university CS courses in the UK aim to create software engineers or at least that showed my research when I was selecting my five university choices. So which are in your opinion the universities which do not only teach you simple coding, but also give you better opportunity in the more interesting CS fields?
For obvious reasons, you can exclude Oxbridge and Imperial.
I don't think they aim to create software engineers for the sake of it, but for two reasons
1) they ask themselves, "ok, what is the least we can do so that these undergrads don't complain, so that we can focus on our research"?
2)What would make statistics for our department look good (and thus keep the funds coming in)?
The answer to both these questions is to make software development a big part of the curriculum. The students get an easy(ish) ride and they get jobs, which looks good for the department and keeps students happy. After all most of them don't care about education, they just want a degree so that they can go earn some money.
Original post by Artifical_Neuron
Don't get me wrong, I have done a considerable amount of programming in Java and C++ and I certainly don't want to end as a software engineer so I am by no means recommending that anyone should become a programmer. I just wanted to point out that unfortunately 90% of the university CS courses in the UK aim to create software engineers or at least that showed my research when I was selecting my five university choices.
So which are in your opinion the universities which do not only teach you simple coding, but also give you better opportunity in the more interesting CS fields?
For obvious reasons, you can exclude Oxbridge and Imperial.
I just wanted to point out that unfortunately 90% of the university CS courses in the UK aim to create software engineers or at least that showed my research when I was selecting my five university choices. So which are in your opinion the universities which do not only teach you simple coding, but also give you better opportunity in the more interesting CS fields?
For obvious reasons, you can exclude Oxbridge and Imperial.
To be quite frank, I don't know. I would probably just list the top few on league tables but someone else in this thread says that St Andrews was "just another assembly line for armies of mediocre Java programmers".
I would probably therefore say (based on http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/table/2010/jun/04/university-guide-computer-sciences-and-it):
Edin, Ox, Cam, IC, SH, York, Bris (in no particular order...regardless of what ranking says)
I've not been on all courses so there's no way I can offer a balanced perspective.
I neither recommend the list above based on accuracy of included universities or exclusion of others. It was literally a 30s job.
Original post by ch0llima
[...]but there was no escaping the fact that it was just another assembly line for armies of mediocre Java programmers (as all too many CS degrees do) as opposed to producing experienced and versatile computer science graduates.
So, just to clarify, was the only language that you looked at java? And was there no hardware?
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Dirac Delta Function
I don't think they aim to create software engineers for the sake of it, but for two reasons
1) they ask themselves, "ok, what is the least we can do so that these undergrads don't complain, so that we can focus on our research"?
2)What would make statistics for our department look good (and thus keep the funds coming in)?
The answer to both these questions is to make software development a big part of the curriculum. The students get an easy(ish) ride and they get jobs, which looks good for the department and keeps students happy. After all most of them don't care about education, they just want a degree so that they can go earn some money.
1) they ask themselves, "ok, what is the least we can do so that these undergrads don't complain, so that we can focus on our research"?
2)What would make statistics for our department look good (and thus keep the funds coming in)?
The answer to both these questions is to make software development a big part of the curriculum. The students get an easy(ish) ride and they get jobs, which looks good for the department and keeps students happy. After all most of them don't care about education, they just want a degree so that they can go earn some money.
Two things raised here:
1) The staff don't care.
2) The students don't care.
I find this especially sad because it's probably true in quite a few universities. Not the good ones (hopefully) but a depressing number regardless
Original post by Chrosson
Try not to base a decision affecting the rest of your life on some anecdotes. Computer science is (in my experience from what companies say they want) more employable than engineering. I don't personally know about job saturation, but you might want to consider how saturated the job market is for Sociology graduates.
Computer Science is by no means a useless degree.
Computer Science is by no means a useless degree.
Yup. Everybody's boat is floated in a different manner, and you should follow your passions and your own career paths. Do whatever suits you and not what Uncle ch0llima says you should do
That said, I'm trying to play Devil's Advocate and ensure that you take time to examine the bigger picture.
My perception of 'Computer Science' is closely linked to innovation. Obviously, everyone has different definitions so this is just my thoughts here. If we consider how many audio/video converters are available or how many businesses use database applications, that's what I wouldn't consider computer science to be.
This is true yet, as I say, "Computer Science" degrees see graduates railroaded into these roles.
To me, if you were working in (say) Intel helping to move processors to the next level or in Microsoft working on new products, that would be Computer Science. These obviously aren't as glamorous as they sound - as ch0llima correctly pointed out, they do involve a lot of programming. But it isn't just bashing out the lines of code, it actually requires thought and insight.
"Thought" and "insight" are usually frowned upon, because anything which differs from someone else's opinion or personal approach to implementation is bourgeois and unacceptable. Obviously, a more senior developer or your development manager knows best
and you're generally treated like a prize tit. See TheDailyWTF.com for real world examples of this.As culture and dynamics go, software engineering is stuck in the Stone Age. Arrogance, ignorance and self-righteousness ahoy... and you should see some of the truly ancient technologies many enterprise shops are running and are thus used for development. No wonder so many big companies get hacked left, right and centre tbh.
Please, if you think I'm wrong at any point call me out on it. I'm just trying to help these guys with misconceptions which I think they have. It may well be the case I'm the one with misconceptions and I'm talking out of my posterior.
Many would say the same about me, but I and I be stubborn.
I don't like making this kinda info public really. If you really want to know, PM me (from the way you've phrased this you seem to have a suspicion already...putting a guess into your pm would be interesting from my pov ).
).I've got a suspicion, but I need more time to think. PM on its way later on
Original post by Chrosson
So, just to clarify, was the only language that you looked at java? And was there no hardware?
I'm talking about St Andrews with regards to the following:
C was dabbled with and not put into any clear context. Again, it was a case of "Implement the theory in this morning's lecture" and not actually using it for any kind of valid purpose.
As for hardware, there was one Honours level architecture module (which I didn't do because I'd left by then) and this was at an abstract high level and poorly taught.
Java, however, was done to death year in year out. It was pretty much a case of "That's today's lecture over... the lab is to go and write Java code to implement everything because we've only taught you theoretical hogwash without any kind of context".
I have another few things to say about St Andrews and its CompSci department, but it's getting very late and will take us off topic. I'll provide the end to this tale on request tomorrow if you'd like it.
Time for bed, have had another longish night in the pub.
Well, It is so difficult to chose.
Original post by ch0llima
I have another few things to say about St Andrews and its CompSci department, but it's getting very late and will take us off topic. I'll provide the end to this tale on request tomorrow if you'd like it.
Requested
would like to know?Original post by Chrosson
Have they moved? I visited when they had a single floor in a tall building (which wasn't very impressive), but seem to remember that they were planning on moving to an entirely new place.
Or at least that's what I think I remember.
Or at least that's what I think I remember.
One floor?
we have a good 5 floors or so of labs. We even have a small pantry area to cook food, tea/coffee etc...awesome for when your staying in the labs over night. Labs are also 24/7. Most of the rooms in Appleton tower don't appear to have computers - because they fold out of the table at the push of a button...it means you can pick any room, and have access to computers in there if you want too.
In addition, there's the Informatics Forum which i believe cost 42 Million to build
I have never seen a more stunning building, glass windows means you can observe the city, giant beanbags and pantrys all over the place make great for taking, breaks, fantastic high-tech meeting area's for group discussion.
Never saw any University that had a building that even remotely compared.
(edited 13 years ago)
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