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Tottenham Hotspur Society II

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Reply 1580

Tommyjw

What a season Norwich are having.

Reply 1581

rockrunride

Need the downs to appreciate the ups. Pain doesn't make Spurs cry, happiness does.

Reply 1582

Glennith

Even more disappointing was how norwich had nowt to play for, but still showed 10 times the commitment and desire we did. :facepalm2:

Reply 1583

rockrunride

Wish we could be as clinical as Arsenal have been :sad:

Reply 1584

WhatIsAUsername?

Original post by rockrunride

Wish we could be as clinical as Arsenal have been :sad:

You wish you were Arsenal :tongue:

Reply 1585

rockrunride

Original post by WhatIsAUsername?

You wish you were Arsenal :tongue:

Well, no. But I wish we had the desire to last the whole season. Like a certain other [supposedly North] London club.

Reply 1586

UniOfLife

Heads up in advance - this is a long, somewhat rambling post with a rant at the end.

First up I think there's a cultural problem at Spurs. While the likes of United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool have a culture of winnings - Spurs do not. And while City are prepared and able to throw plenty of money at the team - Spurs are not. For as long as I can remember the air around Tottenham has always been that the club is an "almost" club, always on the verge of becoming great but always failing to do so. Not sure why this is the case.

In specifics I think a look back to Martin Jol's first full season in charge shows something interesting. That first season (05-06) saw us come so close to finishing ahead of Arsenal and a top-four finish. Dodgy lasagne was all that got in the way. The season after that (06-07) was also good, despite lots of injuries. A second fifth-place finish with close-run knockouts in the quarters of the FA and UEFA cups and a semi-final knockout in extra-time by Arsenal. The following season was poor in the League, Jol was sacked, replaced by Ramos. We won the Carling Cup and finished mid-table ending the season with a pathetic whimper of draws. Jol's sacking was somewhat pathetic since Ramos had already been approached before the season had even started. Aside from the Carling Cup run, Ramos didn't seem to do anything special. Next up (08-09) the season started badly again, Ramos was gone and Redknapp brought in. Comolli was sacked too. We eventually finished 8th and got to the final of League Cup for the second year in a row (the third season in a row getting to the semis of that comp). In (09-10) we finished fourth, got a semi-final place in the FA cup (requiring replays to get past Leeds, Bolton and Fulham). And last season we finished fifth again, getting to the quarters of the Champions League.[spolier]

I don't think Harry Redknapp has been the saviour he's portrayed as. Everyone says we should consider where we were when he took over which was bottom of the table. But we all knew even at the time that that was a false position. In reality, our finishes under him have not been so different to those under Jol who took us from season after season of mid-table finishes to two consecutive fifth places. Aside from two blips (see below or the spoiler) when managers were sacked mid-season, we've been consistently finishing fifth (and looks likely again this season, or possibly 6th).

In summary our final league positions since Jol's first season in charge have been: 5,5,11,8,4,5 with the two blips being when we started the season really badly.

The win-ratios of Jol and Redknapp have been: 45.27% win ratio for Jol and 49.48% for Redknapp. Redknapp has 25.52% draws compared to Jol's 25.68%. So I don't think there's a huge amount to call there.

So I don't see Redknapp as our saviour and clearly the whole England job discussion has got to him and our season is in tatters now as a result. It doesn't strike me as professional. I don't know if it's just Harry who is at fault here or if the directors are also to blame but it's somewhat pathetic.

One of the things that struck me during the commentary today was the stat that the combined honours of all Tottenham's players were outweighed by just Terry and Cole. And most of ours were from Gallas and Cudicini! We've spent so much money in the last six years - how have we not brought in winners? Redknapp's most praised signings (aside from van der Vaart which is as much about the cost as the player) are Parker and Friedel who are supposed to be amazing because of their experience. But neither has experience of winning. Neither has the winner's attitude if you ask me.

And nothing sums up my twin problems better than the signing of Ryan Nelsen in the summer. Harry says he's a great guy to have in the dressing room and the training pitch. He's 35 and has won nothing. He was released from Blackburn for nothing - they didn't want him but we did!?

Aside from the annoyance of signing a player who will rarely play and add almost nothing, it's the fact that he's a central defender that bothers me. Because (at least) since Jol's first season in charge we've desperately needed decent defenders. Our main guys now if all were fit would be King, Kaboul and Dawson. King and Dawson have been at the club since before Jol, while Kaboul joined the club for £8m, left for £6 before coming back again for £9.5m We've also managed to bring in Gallas for free after he was released by Arsenal. Today we had to rely on King who can barely play and Gallas who is somewhat past his prime.

Yet to me it's been obvious for ages that we need top quality central defenders. Just look at the stats:

For the league since 05/06:
Goals scored: 53, 57, 66, 45, 67, 55,
Goals conceded: 38, 54, 61, 45, 41, 46,

For comparison's sake here's our GD in context:
05-06: +15, finished 5th, teams above us finished with +37,+32, +38 and +50.
06-07: +3, finished 5th, Everton below us had +16, and above us was 28,30,40 and 56.
07-08: +5, finished 11th, top 6 had 20,22,39,43,39 and 58.
08-09: 0, finished 8th, top 5 had 18,31,44,50,44.
09-10: +26, finished 4th, GD of top to 7th (including us) was: 71,58,42,26,28,13,26
10-11: +9, finished 5th, Liverpool below us had +15, while those above us finished with 29,27,36 and 41.

And none of this was because we didn't score enough goals. In those same seasons we came 5th, 4th, 4th, 7th, 5th and 6th in terms of goals scored but 5th, 13th, 15th, 7th, 5th and 8th in terms of goals conceded. We've always needed to beef up our defence and have never done so.

We play attractive football but we're totally vulnerable at the back. We've got no winners in the team and, frankly, haven't got one in the manager's seat either. I know we won't pay massive wages, and that's fine and maybe a good thing but let's bring in some decent players not rejects from other teams? Can't we bring in solid defenders? Can't we have a decent substitutes bench? Our bench today was a disgrace compared to Chelsea's. Only two players on it were remotely capable of changing the match in our favour (Defoe and Giovani) and one of those never gets a chance from Harry.

The situation is totally pathetic. Let Harry go to the England job. If we're serious about being a winning club and a serious club we need to bring in a winning manager and support him. Although I dislike his style of football, I'd even take Mourinho at this point because at least he knows how to win things.

Clearly something significant has to change at the club. I'm not sure what it is but I'm fed up with the nonsense going on here. Lennon's been out for a while and we've truly missed him - but how long has he been at the club? Why have we got no cover? Why have we got no world class central defenders? Why did we go from the situation of having four in-form strikers (Berbatov, Keane, Defoe and Bent) to apparently having only one, on loan, and needing to bring in another near-reject just to cover the gaps? Why if Modric is playing poorly for months don't we have anyone even semi-decent who could come in and play for a while? Why when a decision goes unfairly against us do our players practically give up?

Just a couple of months ago we had all the buzz around the club, now its the sound of vultures circling waiting to pick off the pieces of this ruined season. And the problems here are no different to what they have been for ages. We need world class central defenders to go along with our world-class (on its day) attacking strength. We have done since Jol's time. We need strength in the squad, something we had much more of in Jol's time. We need confidence and a winning mentality, something we've never had for as long as I can remember.

OK so rant over. But the message is right, I think. We need a change in mentality, attitude and culture. And we need some new centre-backs.

Reply 1587

Apocalyptic Fish

Tottenham 1 - 5 Chelsea

Problem?

Reply 1588

rockrunride

We're Spurs, and as Bill Nicholson moulded us into an attacking team, a defensive problem developed and nobody's really dealt with it. We arguably haven't had a decent pairing at the back since the 1980s. If Ledley had both working knees and Sol Campbell hadn't been subjected to the likes of Stuart Nethercott and Justin Edinburgh amongst others, we might have had two world-beaters by 2002-03. Remember we didn't deride Sol because he left (who could?), we derided him because he lied. As for Ledley, he epitomises us as a team: he has his frequent moments of brilliance but on the whole he's unable to shine. It's a shame. Gallas has been underrated for us I think though, two years ago he was unstoppable. But it's probably time for both him and Ledley to retire and we need to buy new centre halves. Keep Dawson and Kaboul, and sell Corluka, Bassong and maybe Nelsen.

The problem with Harry is that he was always a bit of an uncertainty with loyalty. Financially ruining both Southampton and Portsmouth doesn't help in estimations of him. But then again our own loyalty to our former heroes hasn't been that rewarding either; Ossie Ardiles and Glenn Hoddle were amazing players but not amazing managers. I won't forget how Harry saved us from a fast descent towards the Championship in 08-09. Nor will I forget our fantastic debut CL season. He's been largely great. This England manager talk hasn't helped Spurs at all but given the way Harry has always been, why did the club sit back and take it?

We really wanted the cup as we love the cup. But we still have 4th to play for and we beat both Arsenal and Chelsea on the trot after losing to Portsmouth two years ago. This time it's Queen's Park Rangers and Blackburn. If we don't get four points from those two Harry should definitely go. Managerial changes are not always for the better (Ramos, Santini, Graham, Francis) though.

Reply 1589

internet tough guy

Original post by UniOfLife

You said you've spent so much money but have not brought in any 'winners'?

Well, what names are you thinking of?

Personally I don't think theres a great deal that could be done, Apart from that one season, Spurs have never been in the CL, and have had very inconsistent finishes in the PL. And of course you've mentioned it, your club isn't exactly awash with cash like citeh is today. So its bound to be extremely difficult to attract any proven talent or 'winners'.

Reply 1590

UniOfLife

Original post by rockrunride

Harry didn't save us from any possible relegation because, frankly relegation was never a serious threat. True we'd had a truly terrible start but something was wrong in the club and whoever came in (so long as they were half-way competent) would have got that group of players out of trouble. Before Jol took over we were finishing mid-table every season. Jol comes in and gets us fifth place two seasons running. In the next two seasons we have serious instability resulting in terrible starts and quick changes to managers and poor finishes. But in Harry's two full seasons we finished back in 4th and 5th again. This season we're again looking at 4th or 5th. I can't see that it's Harry especially that got us those positions in the League to be honest.

And if we take only 4 points from the next two games we're in real danger of finishing 6th. We need to and should win all our remaining games. If we don't, we rely on other clubs doing us a favour.

It's true that managerial changes don't always work out, that's why we have to choose carefully. But Redknapp, to me, has shown himself not to be the genius we all thought he was, nor even the professional he ought to be. He denies it, but there can be no doubt that the England job has distracted him and the players. His tactical decisions have been very poor and his signings often questionable.

Harry, for all that he may have done for the club (which in my view is not as much as others think), he has seriously let everyone down.

Reply 1591

UniOfLife

Original post by internet tough guy

I disagree on the inconsistency of Spurs. If you see my earlier post it is apparent that since Jol's first full season we have finished top-5 in every season when there has not been a managerial change (i.e. 4 of the last 6) and will likely do so again this season.

I think we're a big club clearly pushing for better things, if Harry and Levy cannot convince top players to join us in the best league in the world then they're not doing their jobs right.

Reply 1592

internet tough guy

Original post by UniOfLife

Really? compared to the likes the city, utd, chelsea, arsenal, barcelona, real madrid, the milans, bayern munich....

not trying to annoy you or anything, but I think there needs to be a reality check, even us (arsenal) struggle to attract proven talent to come to us, and its not just because wenger's stingy, the likes of mata and of course many of our own players have chosen to go elsewhere even though we're major club competiting in the CL every single season as well as finishing in the top 4 of supposedly 'the best league in the world'. Like Harry would say, I think you're punching above your own weight, look at van der vaart, back then I remember most people were surprised you managed to nab him, and then theres have adebayor who I admit is a class player. And I know you've finished in the top 6 for many times, but realistically you guys were only a serious threat to CL places in 2006, 2010 and of course this season.

Reply 1593

Trader2012

Did the goal Mata or not? After all, it was a 5-1 thrashing.

The answer - Of course it bloody did and here's why.

1. Psychology - You've just come it from the half time break with a strategy, whether it be full blown attack or hit them on the counter. And then a goal that was nowhere near goes in( as proved by ITV software). What does that do to your inspiration to go on and win it. Especially since the goal isnt a goal. Many will lose concentration & the incentive to play. Spurs dont let in 3 goals in half a match when they are 0-0, only when they are in a poor mentality and losing heavily.(just like man city normally score 2-3 within minutes of each other when theyre in a good mentality.

2. Actual scoreline - Basically it meant spurs had to score 2 goals not 1. Evidently a big disadvantage. Now they would have to score 3 to win. The phantom goal also meant spurs had to go all out for the win which inadvertently left gaps at the back

probably a load more reasons but once again it feels like we've been totally robbed.

And people say don't blame chelsea?
BLAME MATA, watch his reaction to the non-goal and where he was standing. I bet anything that he was influential on the refs decision.

PPS - I would have rather had a penalty and a red card. If this had happened the game might have finished 2-1 chelsea or spurs might have won. Therefore the goal decision is even more important

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 1594

marcusmerehay

The margin is very tight - if you think a ball is even close to crossing the line you're going to celebrate it, it's an FA Cup semi-final for God's sake.

Reply 1595

Trader2012

Original post by marcusmerehay

The margin is very tight - if you think a ball is even close to crossing the line you're going to celebrate it, it's an FA Cup semi-final for God's sake.

Mata must know it did not cross. He saw players lying behind the line and saw ekotto kick it out. As shown on ITV in the pitch simulator the ball was at least half a metre away from the line at its closest point.

Whats worse- Ashley young diving to get a penalty
or
Mata trying to convince the ref its a goal when it clearly was not

Reply 1596

marcusmerehay

Original post by Trader2012

There was nothing 'clear' about the fact it wasn't a goal until you saw the replay/stills - Atkinson could not have been sure unless he was stood right on the goal line.

It was certainly a lot more difficult to rule out the goal than a certain other famous non-goal involving a certain Man Utd goalkeeper.

The Young thing is a totally different incident.

Reply 1597

UniOfLife

Original post by internet tough guy

There are a handful of elite clubs, of course, but they don't buy up all the top players. We're certainly among the biggest clubs in Europe and saying that we were only a realistic CL contender for three seasons in the last six is not exactly dampening that claim. Realistically, we've been CL contenders in every season since 2005 in which we have not sacked our manager mid-season.

There are some very talented players out there who could and would join Spurs. I remember that in the summer transfer window last season we were heavily linked with Suarez but he joined Liverpool who were then and ever since below us. Now, I know it turns out he's a nasty piece of work so perhaps its a good job he isn't playing for us, but we have really suffered with the lack of a goal-scorer and a top-class striker who can score out of nothing like Suarez. Had we got him in I really think we could have nabbed a top-four finish last season ahead of City and would have definitely got third this season.

Harry has said often that he'd only buy a player if he was a big signing. But that's left us with a bare squad. Our bench is empty with only one player on it who could change a game in our favour.

Our signings have been a little odd. We paid more for Bassong than Kaboul, for example. We bought back Defoe for almost three times what we sold him for just a year earlier. And this season we only bought 1 player - Parker from relegated West Ham.

Is Levy scared to let Harry start buying because of his reputation? Is he worried about spending huge amounts because we've made some really shockingly bad signings in recent years (Bent, Pav?, Bentley, Keane)?

So I don't think we cannot bring in the players we need. I think something else is wrong in that department.

Reply 1598

Trader2012

mendez vs carroll.

Deary me

Reply 1599

UniOfLife

Original post by marcusmerehay

There was nothing 'clear' about the fact it wasn't a goal until you saw the replay/stills - Atkinson could not have been sure unless he was stood right on the goal line.

Firstly, if he couldn't be sure then he shouldn't have given it.

But it really was quite obviously not a goal. Common sense shows it couldn't go in because there were actual physical people between the ball and the goal line. It was physically impossible for that ball to have crossed the line.

Having said that, I don't think that was to blame for the loss of the game. And if it was, i.e. the players lost concentration, lost their drive and ambition because of it, then that's pretty poor showing from them in my opinion. They ought to have been more fired up, worked harder, played harder, wanted it more after that injustice. If they mentally crumbled that's not Atkinson's fault.