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Original post by Dirac Delta Function
his job as a physicist is not to do IMO/IPO problems, it's to do physics research.

This. It turns out that being good at IMO problems isn't particularly useful for making ground breaking discoveries in science. Academia is more interested in people who are capable of researching than people who are good at silly 6 hour long tests.
Original post by IrrationalNumber
This. It turns out that being good at IMO problems isn't particularly useful for making ground breaking discoveries in science. Academia is more interested in people who are capable of researching than people who are good at silly 6 hour long tests.

The brains and ingenuity that come with being able to do IMO problems is obviously great for ground breaking discoveries, if one's focus lies in that direction. To call them 'silly tests' is a joke; we're talking about a calibre of Maths that nobody else in the world is intellectually capable of doing, unlike tin-pot academics like Cox. These are the world's brightest. Only someone of that calibre could do something like solve the Poincare conjecture.
Reply 82
Original post by Physics Enemy
Money that could be spent on better things; they're spending billions on silly machines and whatnot at CERN, whilst people starve.


You appear to have a problem with science in general.
Original post by grth
Maybe because he's an absolute genius?

Intelligence is more than a few letters on a gilded piece of paper.
And no-one's good at everything, after all.


True, and this thread probably wouldn't exist if he were a binman or a world class tenor. But the fact is he's a well known physicist, so you'd expect more than a D in A-level Maths...
Am I the only person here who has never heard of this guy? :s-smilie:
Original post by Physics Enemy
Rote learning/model solutions, even people on here will testify to that.


So? That's the same for any examination.

From this point on he's been patted on the head, played around with toys and materials, writing books and doing TV programs. I can't see why that necessarily implies a lot of mathematical and physical talent. Financial success, sure.


Oh, and conducted and published research on high energy particle physics in respected academic journals. You seem to be keen to overlook that.


So he should walk an A in A-Level Maths then. I think research would be far better off if they utilised the actual talent they had in society. P*ssing away IMO/IPO medallists is a serious waste of talent; these guys could actually do something, unlike Cox. Cox is basically just sucking up money, like a leach.


I suspect he probably could now. I'm sure I could get an A* in A-level Chemisty now without much effort, doesn't change the fact that I got a B at the time. I don't see what your point is there. Also, why are we 'pissing away' IMO/IPO medallists? Where is your evidence that Cox is depriving someone more deserving of a research position?

It's okay telling us what *you* think would be better for research, but who are you to make that judgement? What research experience do you have?


People with natural ability and talent are capable of far more than Cox. It's very sad that academia is prepared to p*ss them down the drain whilst spending a fortune playing with toys and doing little in our lifetimes. I would far rather have the talents of the real brains utilised, than have Cox play around with toys. As a side issue, they've wasted billions on these silly machines and whatnot at places like Cern; which have little use in the real world where people live and die.


Okay, so you don't like the LHC and so it wouldn't matter if Cox had straight A*'s, that's the real axe you are grinding here.

You do realise that experiment is the one thing that a) underpins science and b) seperates science from other forms of knowledge gathering exercise. String theory is just a pipe dream until it can be experimentally validated, as such, just focussing on high level mathematically theory in physics stops it from being a science.
Original post by Physics Enemy

I'm not angry, but I'm bitter because he's dumbing down science and making money by being a poser.


Basically you are bitter because he has a successful media career as a science communicator. That isn't an argument, it's just sour grapes.

It's clear that you have some wierd forward-casting gripe against experimental physicists and those who do outreach work because you feel that there are less opportunities for you to sit around pondering complex and unverifiable mathematical theories in physics departments that focus solely on theory and don't engage with the public.

To the wider readership of this thread - sadly, having worked in a physics department for a number of years conducting experimental research, I can attest that the attitude displayed by Physics Enemy (about experimental physics, not about pre-uni exams being more important that following achievements) is far too common amongst certain sections in the theoretical community. Looking at it from the point of view of a scientifically literate outsider (a chemist), it's clear that academic physics has a serious cultural problem in that many students feel that experimental physics is not 'proper' physics and is 'easy' some of these attitudes persist into academia because these people have never actually done a research experiment in their lives and think that all experimentation is as tedious and pointless as the handful of basic teaching experiments they did in the first years of their degrees.
Reply 87
Kids these days... using exam results as the ONLY measure of intelligence.
Reply 88
Does it really matter?
Original post by Physics Enemy
they're spending billions on silly machines and whatnot at CERN, whilst people starve.


You really don't get science do you?
Also, you may want to get off the internet then, as the world wide web was something that came out of CERN.
Reply 90
Early 90s when Cox was at uni, a different world for uni requirements. Recruitment was more balanced on taking into account character and the value you would bring to the uni (i.e. at school were you head girl, were you captain in sports, what were your interests) than on who gets straight 'A's. Brian Cox would have been written off in the current University environment where students go to university to get a 2.1 and to then get on a grad scheme rather than go to learn and to develop educationally.

I got accepted for a uni course years ago which now requires three As. I got BCC (requirement then was ABB). I had a cracking CV and am thankful that selection wasn't so crude back then. We are such an academic-grade orientated society (recruitment-wise) now that we can't see beyond the 2.1.

Grade inflation also plays a part...a 'D' in A level maths in 1993 would in my estimation show more skill than a D in 2011. Let's face it, which government/school/educational institution wants to be the one to register the first drop in grades for 28 years!! They will always go up. Grade inflation is a fact.
Reply 91
The programmes are only dumbed down so that the majority of the people who would be interested in them, can actually understand it. It's all very well you lot saying how simple it is with your A* in A-level physics and maths, but to ordinary people such as my mum who is a reasonably clever person (History degree from UEA) but hasn't studied physics since before her O-levels and she's now nearly fifty, she is interlectual enough to find all the physics interesting but needs it at that level to understand it. She often records horizon for me, but often gives up watching it herself as the science and maths often egt's to complicated, but you wouldn't call her a stupid person.

Prof Cox is jsut trying to make physics accessable and interesting to the masses and can clearly understand more andvanced stuff.
Original post by Nix-j-c
The programmes are only dumbed down so that the majority of the people who would be interested in them, can actually understand it. It's all very well you lot saying how simple it is with your A* in A-level physics and maths, but to ordinary people such as my mum who is a reasonably clever person (History degree from UEA) but hasn't studied physics since before her O-levels and she's now nearly fifty, she is interlectual enough to find all the physics interesting but needs it at that level to understand it. She often records horizon for me, but often gives up watching it herself as the science and maths often egt's to complicated, but you wouldn't call her a stupid person.

Prof Cox is jsut trying to make physics accessable and interesting to the masses and can clearly understand more andvanced stuff.


Absolutely spot on. Popular science programmes are for general consumption not for expert analysis. To be honest to really communicate ideas clearly and simply then one must really understand them properly.
To comment on the general topic this thread is picking up now, watching any TV programme related to what you did at uni is annoying. They conflate, they simplify, they dumb down. But it makes for interesting TV, as opposed to a televised university lecture.
Reply 94
Chemistboy, i tried to give you pos rep, but already have done recently so it won't let me again yet! :frown:
Reply 95
Original post by ChemistBoy


To the wider readership of this thread - sadly, having worked in a physics department for a number of years conducting experimental research, I can attest that the attitude displayed by Physics Enemy (about experimental physics, not about pre-uni exams being more important that following achievements) is far too common amongst certain sections in the theoretical community. Looking at it from the point of view of a scientifically literate outsider (a chemist), it's clear that academic physics has a serious cultural problem in that many students feel that experimental physics is not 'proper' physics and is 'easy' some of these attitudes persist into academia because these people have never actually done a research experiment in their lives and think that all experimentation is as tedious and pointless as the handful of basic teaching experiments they did in the first years of their degrees.


Spot on, you often hear comments (on this forum) and elsewhere that experimental physics is just monkey work and that any reasonable theorist can do high level experimens. Well to be an experimental physics you have to know a lot of theory anyway to be able to plan an effective experiment, plus I find it's much more fun and exciting to get data out of a real experiment and play about with stuff to see if it fits a theoretical model than endlessly clacking away on a computer typing in calculations. Theoretical physics can easily be just a mind numbing at times than experimental physics.
Reply 96
Original post by Physics Enemy
What are you up to these days? Did your education get you anywhere?


These days I am doing a part-time PhD, having given up a pretty good career in academic admin (I was on around 45k p/a until two years ago). As to my education getting me anywhere, it's not a relevant question in my mind; what my education got me was inspiration, insight, perpective, intellectual stimulation and, I hope and think, a good mind. It's kind of old-fashioned to say so these days but education has its own value and for me it was never a means to an end - I have never been a materialistic or career-orientated person, and as longs as I have been able to make ends meet comfortably enough, what I do with my days is more important to me than what it pays.
Original post by megaduck
These days I am doing a part-time PhD, having given up a pretty good career in academic admin (I was on around 45k p/a until two years ago). As to my education getting me anywhere, it's not a relevant question in my mind; what my education got me was inspiration, insight, perpective, intellectual stimulation and, I hope and think, a good mind. It's kind of old-fashioned to say so these days but education has its own value and for me it was never a means to an end - I have never been a materialistic or career-orientated person, and as longs as I have been able to make ends meet comfortably enough, what I do with my days is more important to me than what it pays.

Cool, I think we're on the same wavelength in that respect.
Original post by ChemistBoy
So? That's the same for any examination.

Naaah, not hard ones. You can't wrote learn STEP III or IMO really.

Original post by ChemistBoy
Oh, and conducted and published research on high energy particle physics in respected academic journals. You seem to be keen to overlook that.

I didn't overlook it; I said he's played around a lot with toys in CERN and written books on it.

Original post by ChemistBoy
I suspect he probably could now. I'm sure I could get an A* in A-level Chemisty now without much effort, doesn't change the fact that I got a B at the time. I don't see what your point is there. Also, why are we 'pissing away' IMO/IPO medallists? Where is your evidence that Cox is depriving someone more deserving of a research position?

Depends why you got a B at the time. If you put your blood and guts into it, had a decent teacher and yet got a B, I'd doubt your claim to be honest. Unless it's due to the grade inflation thing, then maybe that could account for it. I wouldn't say Cox is depriving an IMOer because an IMOer would walk all over him if he wanted to. It's academia's fault that they are ignoring and not enticing the gifted.

Original post by ChemistBoy
It's okay telling us what *you* think would be better for research, but who are you to make that judgement? What research experience do you have?

It's common sense that motivated clever people are better for research than motivated average people. The problem is that unis/academics are happy to p*ss away talent to suit their agendas. Maybe they don't want to be overshadowed. It could be like employers bottling it when it comes to bright applicants, choosing a puppet instead. Perhaps you can shed some light; you're in the game.

Original post by ChemistBoy
Okay, so you don't like the LHC and so it wouldn't matter if Cox had straight A*'s, that's the real axe you are grinding here.

If bright people were working on the LHC and actually doing so for a productive reason, then I wouldn't have an issue. I do have a problem with billions spent so that Cox can play with toys and be patted on the head, whilst people die.

Original post by ChemistBoy
You do realise that experiment is the one thing that a) underpins science and b) seperates science from other forms of knowledge gathering exercise. String theory is just a pipe dream until it can be experimentally validated, as such, just focussing on high level mathematically theory in physics stops it from being a science.

But the bookworm stuff is far far cheaper and far harder too, so it garners my respect in that sense. It's not really harming anybody. I guess a lot of it is ultimately useless and mental m*sturbation, but at least it's cheap and keeps them happy. Neither cause 'saves the world', but one is at least more sensible. If they're going to waste a fortune on practical science, at least make it useful.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by WelshBluebird
You really don't get science do you?
Also, you may want to get off the internet then, as the world wide web was something that came out of CERN.

CERN played a part in that in the 80's, but I am all for useful science that benefits humanity. Not playing with toys that cost billions. I've watched documentaries where the argument is that they do all this stuff and essentially rely on useful by products popping up from time to time. Focus and moderate spending is needed.

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