[yodhi kanjar]

(Original post by Rhadamanthus)
Yet another uneducated dunce who doesn't accept the right of Israel to exist, yet expects that the international community cow-tow to Islamist desires to re-establish an Islamic waqf in the region in the mould of Hamas' Gaza.

Woopee, I can feel myself getting stupider as I read where this thread has gone in the past few months.

No I dont accept Israel's right to exist just like I don't accept Pakistan's and Bangladesh's 'right' to exist, guess that makes me anti semitic and an islamaphobe now?

And no if you read the first paragraph, it clearly imples the so call international imperialist selfish community has no right to interfere it has no right to make decisions on lands which others inhabited, so no I don't want the so called international 'community' aka USA and its lapdogs to 'cow-tow' infact I want the opposite i.e mind their own business.

[yodhi kanjar]

ANd if you want to engage in a constructive argument then please answer my questions.

People take it a given that Israel literally has a right to exist, but no one ever seems to justify it, so why don't you give that a try rather than launching personal attacks on people.

I am sure it isn't too much to ask for you to do that.

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by yodhi kanjar)
No I dont accept Israel's right to exist just like I don't accept Pakistan's and Bangladesh's 'right' to exist, guess that makes me anti semitic and an islamaphobe now?

No, it makes you incredibly out of tune with the past sixty years of post-war diplomacy and the construction of international legal structures designed to deal with these issues. I can't help that you still yearn for the days when Palestine was under Ottoman rule (after all, Ottoman imperialists are always more moral than American imperialists in the eyes of people like you), however most people have accepted the international community's decision in this respect, shown through the UN's Partition Plan and their subsequent resolutions calling for negotiations.

In essence, the debate now is not between Zionists and pro-Palestinians; it is between those who accept the rule of international law and the existence of two states for two peoples, and on the other hand those who still yearn for the eradication of Israel.

[yodhi kanjar]

(Original post by Rhadamanthus)
No, it makes you incredibly out of tune with the past sixty years of post-war diplomacy and the construction of international legal structures designed to deal with these issues. I can't help that you still yearn for the days when Palestine was under Ottoman rule (after all, Ottoman imperialists are always more moral than American imperialists in the eyes of people like you), however most people have accepted the international community's decision in this respect, shown through the UN's Partition Plan and their subsequent resolutions calling for negotiations.

In essence, the debate now is not between Zionists and pro-Palestinians; it is between those who accept the rule of international law and the existence of two states for two peoples, and on the other hand those who still yearn for the eradication of Israel.

India had to be partitioned, india lost over a third of its heritage land and history. the same with palestine. You call it diplomacy, lets be brutal its all lies isn't it? and america is best at playing games and meddling in the affairs of others but thats another story.

And if you are going to bring up the ottamans then lets also discuss american history and what christopher columbus did to the natives in america, would you like to do that? hmmmm?

Palestinians know for a fact that Israel will not be eradicated but they would rather die fighting the injustice and dying with the knowledge they stood for something that they faught injustice and didn't accept the western imposed injustice than die knowing they accepted Israel and bowed down and stood for nothing and accepted being wronged.

[yodhi kanjar]

If another country is created right here in our back yard would we accept it? Of course not, so who are you to tell Palestinians to accept western created 'international laws' which aren't very international as they are created by western nations to be imposed on thee poorer nations and such laws don't apply to our governments.

I mean bush blair and trueman who have all commited and aided crimes against humanity and lets not forget the crimes against humanity commited by america in Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam where are these international laws which supposedly exist?

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by yodhi kanjar)
India had to be partitioned, india lost over a third of its heritage land and history. the same with palestine. You call it diplomacy, lets be brutal its all lies isn't it? and america is best at playing games and meddling in the affairs of others but thats another story.

And if you are going to bring up the ottamans then lets also discuss american history and what christopher columbus did to the natives in america, would you like to do that? hmmmm?

Palestinians know for a fact that Israel will not be eradicated but they would rather die fighting the injustice and dying with the knowledge they stood for something that they faught injustice and didn't accept the western imposed injustice than die knowing they accepted Israel and bowed down and stood for nothing and accepted being wronged.

You are arguing with the wrong person. Your points are wasted here, I've countered them a million times before. I am, on this forum, one of the most vocal proponents of American power and American authority in preventing genocides and crimes against humanity (what you call 'meddling') and I am all to aware of the kind of moral relativism employed by people who would rather discuss things that happened hundreds of years ago and how these things somehow restrict the ability of modern-day Americans to act. It's akin to saying that modern Germany can't donate aid to Africa because of Hitler.

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by yodhi kanjar)
If another country is created right here in our back yard would we accept it? Of course not, so who are you to tell Palestinians to accept western created 'international laws' which aren't very international as they are created by western nations to be imposed on thee poorer nations and such laws don't apply to our governments.

I mean bush blair and trueman who have all commited and aided crimes against humanity and lets not forget the crimes against humanity commited by america in Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam where are these international laws which supposedly exist?

If you are going to pretend that Jews had no connection to Palestine before the creation of Israel, and that they just 'arrived' one day and demanded a state on someone else's soil, then this debate is not worthy of my time, nor is any ridiculous assertion that Bush and Blair are 'war criminals'. I agree with you on the brutality and illegality of America's actions in Vietnam and Indochina, but I will not accept that the modern-day actions of the United States are anything but in complete compliance with modern legal norms.

[yodhi kanjar]

(Original post by Rhadamanthus)
You are arguing with the wrong person. Your points are wasted here, I've countered them a million times before. I am, on this forum, one of the most vocal proponents of American power and American authority in preventing genocides and crimes against humanity (what you call 'meddling') and I am all to aware of the kind of moral relativism employed by people who would rather discuss things that happened hundreds of years ago and how these things somehow restrict the ability of modern-day Americans to act. It's akin to saying that modern Germany can't donate aid to Africa because of Hitler.

Answer this, why don't these laws apply to america and its lapdogs, why are people not being charged for the crimes against humanity commited by america in nagasaki hiroshima, laos cambodia vietnam? would you care to answer or are you going to sweep it under the carpet again?

When america deals with its own massacres and cleansing and genocide of the natives and americas antics in laos cambodia and vietnam then america can come back and take the moral high ground.

[snozzle]

(Original post by Rhadamanthus)
If you are going to pretend that Jews had no connection to Palestine before the creation of Israel, and that they just 'arrived' one day and demanded a state on someone else's soil, then this debate is not worthy of my time, nor is any ridiculous assertion that Bush and Blair are 'war criminals'. I agree with you on the brutality and illegality of America's actions in Vietnam and Indochina, but I will not accept that the modern-day actions of the United States are anything but in complete compliance with modern legal norms.

Britain had sovereignty on that soil.

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by yodhi kanjar)
Answer this, why don't these laws apply to america and its lapdogs, why are people not being charged for the crimes against humanity commited by america in nagasaki hiroshima, laos cambodia vietnam? would you care to answer or are you going to sweep it under the carpet again?

When america deals with its own massacres and cleansing and genocide of the natives and americas antics in laos cambodia and vietnam then america can come back and take the moral high ground.

The laws do apply to America and her allies. The use of power by American in recent years has been geared towards the enforcement of international law (in Kosovo, Iraq and Libya), and on the whole the US and her allies act in accordance with legal norms. I do not propose holding twenty-first century America to account for the extermination of the Indians that took place almost three hundred years ago.

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by snozzle)
Britain had sovereignty on that soil.

I know that, I was merely paraphrasing his skewed opinion.

[yodhi kanjar]

(Original post by Rhadamanthus)
If you are going to pretend that Jews had no connection to Palestine before the creation of Israel, and that they just 'arrived' one day and demanded a state on someone else's soil, then this debate is not worthy of my time, nor is any ridiculous assertion that Bush and Blair are 'war criminals'. I agree with you on the brutality and illegality of America's actions in Vietnam and Indochina, but I will not accept that the modern-day actions of the United States are anything but in complete compliance with modern legal norms.

If bush and blair are not war criminals then expalin their fight for their lives by them and the two goovernments to hide their secret phone call deatils, why not put it out in the open so the world can see the truth and nothing but the truth, but they have war crimes to hide and people like you support them.

More than half of Israel Jewish people are ashkenazi jews with no middle eastern heritage, they have no links to the land whatsoever , the other half are sephardic jews who have strong middle eastern links either expelled from arab countries post ww2 or lived in ottaman palestine so why should Palestine pay and accept the confiscation of land to house these ashkenazi jews who were mistreated and expelled by Europe and Germany?

and this is where you can now say 'because jews lived their 3000 years ago, well hindus lived in what is now Pakistan and Bangladesh 3000 years ago, should India get its land back then?

[The Epicurean]

One issue I have with the Israel-Palestinian conflict is that there exists a lot of anti-semitism. You oftentimes hear about Israeli treatment of Palestinians and Jewish people do this and that.... Yet other facts are overlook and ignored. I rarely hear anyone make a case for the rights of Palestinians in Lebanon who are banned from a plethora of careers, they recieve constant discrimination, the law prohibits them from owning a property and they are deprived of access to health care.

Another fact is that if people really did care for an ethnic groups right to self-determination, why then do most people overlook the Kurds? The largest ethnic group in the world without a state whom have continuously been persecuted. Like the Palestinians, they were originally promised a nation state which never occured.

The fact that people only seem to hamper on about Israel leaves me to believe that they do not care for the Palestinians but rather have a hidden agenda, namely anti-semitism. Otherwise there would exist more campaigning for the rights of Palestinians in Lebanon and even a call for a Lebanese boycott and demands for a Kurdish state.


Well, anyway, that is my two cents on the issue.

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by yodhi kanjar)
If bush and blair are not war criminals then expalin their fight for their lives by them and the two goovernments to hide their secret phone call deatils, why not put it out in the open so the world can see the truth and nothing but the truth, but they have war crimes to hide and people like you support them.

Peoples' personal phone details should not be released for reasons of pure speculation, least of all if they concern matters of international security.

More than half of Israel Jewish people are ashkenazi jews with no middle eastern heritage, they have no links to the land whatsoever , the other half are sephardic jews who have strong middle eastern links either expelled from arab countries post ww2 or lived in ottaman palestine so why should Palestine pay and accept the confiscation of land to house these ashkenazi jews who were mistreated and expelled by Europe and Germany?

and this is where you can now say 'because jews lived their 3000 years ago, well hindus lived in what is now Pakistan and Bangladesh 3000 years ago, should India get its land back then?

I can now say that it is because Jews have had a social, religious, spiritual, ethical and historical tie to the land for several thousand years, supported by the burgeoning Jewish presence there and the continued desire for a return to the land. The argument that 'oh it was 3,000 years ago, I suppose that means that [insert obscure ethnicity] should get back [insert imperial power]' is wearing thin. I'm in no mood to repeat it with someone who clearly does not understand the intricate subtleties of this conflict.

God, just give me one decent anti-Zionist debater - someone I can actually hold a reasonable argument with. That's all I ask.

[yodhi kanjar]

(Original post by Rhadamanthus)
The laws do apply to America and her allies. The use of power by American in recent years has been geared towards the enforcement of international law (in Kosovo, Iraq and Libya), and on the whole the US and her allies act in accordance with legal norms. I do not propose holding twenty-first century America to account for the extermination of the Indians that took place almost three hundred years ago.

No you brought the ottamans so thats why i decided to bribg the natives up and no you cant hold 21st century america accountable for something that happned in the 16th century but what about hiroshima nagasaki laos vietnam cambodia where america used camps torture electricution of genitals beheading shooting and airstirking civilians in amss numbers to make the 'enemy give up' shall we forget them too? why isn;t america held accountable for all that, the answer is america is the strongest military power and if it self decides if its innocence and such laws do not apply to america or its allies

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by zedbrar)
One issue I have with the Israel-Palestinian conflict is that there exists a lot of anti-semitism. You oftentimes hear about Israeli treatment of Palestinians and Jewish people do this and that.... Yet other facts are overlook and ignored. I rarely hear anyone make a case for the rights of Palestinians in Lebanon who are banned from a plethora of careers, they recieve constant discrimination, the law prohibits them from owning a property and they are deprived of access to health care.

Another fact is that if people really did care for an ethnic groups right to self-determination, why then do most people overlook the Kurds? The largest ethnic group in the world without a state whom have continuously been persecuted. Like the Palestinians, they were originally promised a nation state which never occured.

The fact that people only seem to hamper on about Israel leaves me to believe that they do not care for the Palestinians but rather have a hidden agenda, namely anti-semitism. Otherwise there would exist more campaigning for the rights of Palestinians in Lebanon and even a call for a Lebanese boycott and demands for a Kurdish state.


Well, anyway, that is my two cents on the issue.

This is very true. Whilst not all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic, and anti-Zionists have some legitimate points, it is clear that many people latch on to this debate and exploit the fact that the Jews appear to be behaving badly, and use this to propel their anti-Semitism.

[snozzle]

(Original post by yodhi kanjar)
India had to be partitioned, india lost over a third of its heritage land and history. the same with palestine. You call it diplomacy, lets be brutal its all lies isn't it? and america is best at playing games and meddling in the affairs of others but thats another story.

The partition of India was partly in response to the demands of the Muslim league.

(Original post by yodhi kanjar)
And if you are going to bring up the ottamans then lets also discuss american history and what christopher columbus did to the natives in america, would you like to do that? hmmmm?

Columbus wasn't an American, he was from Genoa and worked for the Spanish.

You won't find many nations which are not wholly or partly the result of conquest. I think it was Nietzsche who said the modern state has its origins in conquest.

(Original post by yodhi kanjar)
Palestinians know for a fact that Israel will not be eradicated but they would rather die fighting the injustice and dying with the knowledge they stood for something that they faught injustice and didn't accept the western imposed injustice than die knowing they accepted Israel and bowed down and stood for nothing and accepted being wronged.

They could stand for their own state and life if they wanted.

Your nihilistic fate and fame narrative is half the problem with this region and religion. People are too willing to embrace death, life is worthless to them yet they profess to fight for it whilst valuing it so little.

[yodhi kanjar]

(Original post by Rhadamanthus)
Peoples' personal phone details should not be released for reasons of pure speculation, least of all if they concern matters of international security.

I can now say that it is because Jews have had a social, religious, spiritual, ethical and historical tie to the land for several thousand years, supported by the burgeoning Jewish presence there and the continued desire for a return to the land. The argument that 'oh it was 3,000 years ago, I suppose that means that [insert obscure ethnicity] should get back [insert imperial power]' is wearing thin. I'm in no mood to repeat it with someone who clearly does not understand the intricate subtleties of this conflict.

God, just give me one decent anti-Zionist debater - someone I can actually hold a reasonable argument with. That's all I ask.

God, half of Israels jews are from europe they have no connection, thats why they had to change their names in the late 1800s so they could pretend they had a 'jewish link' look no further than the netanyahu name.

they are the business of this state, they are accountable to us the citizens and the fact that blair and bush said that there is 'evidence' beyond doubt saddam has WMD (even though only 3% of our soldiers got gas masks hint hint) and that no wmds were found now means that was a big fat lie, so we must see what blair and bush have got to hide by not allowing the disclosure of their dirty secrets, and you should have seen blair sweating when that protestor barged in, blair looked stunned and visibly shaken, had guilt written all over him.

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by yodhi kanjar)
No you brought the ottamans so thats why i decided to bribg the natives up and no you cant hold 21st century america accountable for something that happned in the 16th century but what about hiroshima nagasaki laos vietnam cambodia where america used camps torture electricution of genitals beheading shooting and airstirking civilians in amss numbers to make the 'enemy give up' shall we forget them too? why isn;t america held accountable for all that, the answer is america is the strongest military power and if it self decides if its innocence and such laws do not apply to america or its allies

You have a valid point. The bombing of Hiroshima was nothing but a military necessity, since Emperor Hirohito was not going to contemplate surrendering at all. It saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers and Japanese soldiers and civilians who would have otherwise been killed. The second bomb on Nagasaki was not as necessary, but it does seem to have been the reason the Japanese surrendered. Nuclear capability was going to be put under international (UN) control after the war, and President Truman was one of the advocates of this idea.

I'm certainly in favour of holding people like Henry Kissinger to account for their war crimes.

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by yodhi kanjar)
God, half of Israels jews are from europe they have no connection, thats why they had to change their names in the late 1800s so they could pretend they had a 'jewish link' look no further than the netanyahu name

No, this is a non-point. If a Jew lives in Europe he is Jewish and a part of the Jewish people - a people who, as I said, have historical, ethical, religious and social ties to the land of Israel. This is not hard to understand.