[Wucker]

NOTE: I am an American who will study in the United Kingdom next year, and, as such, I have stumbled upon this site and found it very useful and interesting. I am posting now because I believe I have something to add to the whole multiculturalism debate. I apologize in advance for the length of my writing (and the American spelling).

Often, I think, in the tussle over whether the idea and practice of multiculturalism has done more harm than good, we miss an important point. That point is the difference between what I would term “benign” aspects of culture and “malignant” aspects of culture. In other words, I do not think that the integration of foreign culture with British, or, more generally, Western, culture is a zero-sum game, as multi-culturalists would say. This post will focus specifically on Islamic culture and immigrants, which I will use to prove my point and the necessity of it being understood by governments and the general populace.

I will begin by expressing, simply, what I believe are three ideas that are almost universally accepted by western peoples and governments.

1. Equality of the Sexes


2. Freedom of Speech and Expression


3. Freedom of and from Religion



You will find these concepts applied universally, to various degrees, throughout every advanced democracy, and certainly in Britain (though it is fair to argue that the United Kingdom has not gone far enough).

Now, to define “malignant” and “benign” culture. Malignant culture is, in general, aspects of a specific culture that violate the basic ideals of Western society, forged over centuries of conflict, and best expressed perhaps in the United Nations Declaration on Human Rights. Benign culture is, on the other hand, aspects of a specific culture that are compatible with these ideals. This includes food, sports, language, and other apolitical characteristics. I will be dealing with what I consider to be the “malignant” aspects of Islamic culture, and, for the purpose of expediency, will juxtapose the three ideas listed above with the array of cultures that Muslim immigrants have brought to Britain and other Western societies.

Critics of Islam mostly focus on its most violent aspects, namely, terrorism, and its defenders correctly point to the fact that the vast majority of Muslims do not engage in this type of activity. I would argue, however, that the far more dangerous problem with Islam is the ideology of “mainstream” Muslims, that is, the majority. In the west, religion has largely been secularized. The bible's many horrible quotes in support of things like slavery, death to homosexuals, infidels, adulterers, people who work on Sunday etc., and the inferiority of women are now largely ignored. In addition, vast majorities are now irreligious or only nominally religious (i.e. they don't go to church). The result has been, in the last 40 years, a relative renaissance of human liberty, with groups such as women, homosexuals, and minorities gaining rights and the ability to freely express oneself on a variety of topics greatly expanded. Now, certainly, we have not reached the pinnacle of what is possible, but the West is much better off than the rest of the world in this regard.

Islamic culture, on the other hand, remains stuck in a very reactionary mindset about the three ideas expressed above. Firstly, equality of the sexes. The Koran, as many of you surely know, explicitly states that men are above woman (Surah 2:282), and that men have the right to beat their wives (Surah 4:34). This plays itself out across the Muslim world, with every Muslim government granting a varying degree of greater rights to men. Sadly it even occurs in the United Kingdom, sanctioned by the state, in Sharia councils which place twice the value on a mans testimony and require the wife to go through a much more rigorous process to get a divorce.

Moving on to Freedom of Speech and Expression. Blasphemy is not allowed in the Koran, and every Muslim government bans it, many with the punishment of death. Two politicians in Pakistan have recently been murdered for daring to question the draconian law. This isn't, however, limited to governments, or to Muslim countries. Lets take a look at a series of polls, done by various news sources, on the views of Muslim minorities in the UK. 80% of UK Muslims believe that the publishers of the Danish Mohammed cartoons should be punished, with 50% stating that anyone in the UK who insulted Islam should be prosecuted. The majority of British Muslims, it would seem, do not support freedom of speech, or, at least, anything beyond limited freedom of speech. This is, scarily enough, increasingly prevalent among the youth community as well, with 36% of Muslim teens supporting death, yes death, for apostates (those who leave their faith). These numbers are incredibly sobering, and on their own speak magnitudes to the depth of the gap between Islamic cultures and core universal values.

Finally, Freedom of and from Religion. In many Muslim states, the punishment for apostasy is, in fact, death, which is, of course, sanctioned in the Koran. Large majorities in these countries support this law, and support the role of Islam in politics. Again, however, I think it is essential to focus on the opinions of Muslims in the UK. Adding to the apostate figures above, a poll found that 40% of Muslims support the complete implementation of Sharia law in Britain. The moderate position, in fact, among the Muslim community, is to merely support the Sharia 'councils' that exist today, which oppress women and circumvent secular British law.

[Wucker]

The numbers, then, clearly demonstrate that Muslim immigrants in the UK, and increasingly their children and grandchildren, hold beliefs that run directly counter to the central values of our modern society. These aspects of their culture, I would argue, are irreconcilable with our own. We cannot embrace aspects of a culture that seek to destroy the very roots upon which British, western, modern society has grown. These aspects, I maintain, are malignant.

Now, to counter some expected criticisms. Firstly, many will hasten to argue that we must distinguish between 'culture' and 'religion.' Religion isn't at fault, but merely the result of human corruption. I, on the other hand, place the blame on religion itself. Religion formed these traditions and customs, as made evident by the excessive amount of quotes in various holy books, including both the Bible and Koran, that act as the basis of these traditions and customs. Now, some would surely contend that these excerpts are, again, just incorrect interpretations, and, if they are to unambiguous to argue around, then either irrelevant or simply a poor translation. This makes an all too dangerous assumption, though: it assumes that, in fact, there was some type of original source, presumably God, that formulated a pure, holy, indisputably good message. The more likely explanation, though, is that religion itself is man-made. It's contradictions, bigoted rhetoric, harsh punishments, fallacious logic, and incorrect assumptions – the tangled mess that is organized religion – come not from without, but from within humanity.

Secondly, some will likely accuse me of being bigoted or intolerant. I am only bigoted, however, against sexism, authoritarianism, and violence – common themes in the Koran and other holy books. Intolerance, on the other hand, is an often misused term. It is equated with criticism of religion when it should, in fact, be equated with an unwillingness to allow the presence of said religion. I am, as a liberal minded man, completely in support of ones right to practice and propagate whatever idea one wants, no matter how vile. I also, however, reserve the right to forcefully and confidently argue my own position. I don't wish to silence those who disagree with me, even if they wish to silence me for my own opinions.

[Wucker]

So, you may ask, what is the solution?

One of the key steps must be to limit what I would term as unnecessary or harmful immigration. It would be silly and repressive to allow in immigrants based on race, religion, or creed. It must, instead, be based on education. College educated immigrants are generally able to contribute to society and are, again, generally, more liberal in their beliefs. The vast import of peoples whose own value system necessitates a repudiation and a repression of all other value systems is foolish and counterproductive.

This, though, only addresses one side of the coin. Immigrants in the United Kingdom, unlike in the United States, are encouraged through government programs not to integrate. That is, public policy, in the name of multiculturalism, divides the populace. Besides schemes such as Sharia councils, this is seen most in the spreading presence of government funded faith schools. The concept itself is, of course, an affront to the very idea of secular government. Here in America, despite the large and powerful specter of social conservatism, the supreme court has struck down creationism in public (comprehensive) schools, but in the UK, the idea is supported by taxpayer money. School, a place where a student should exposed to the vast diversity of human learning, is instead a prison, cutting off the student from knowledge outside the box of one specific religion. If Muslim children are to integrate, instead of turn towards extremism, faith schools backed by the government must be abolished.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, there must be a change in mindset among the left in the UK, the US, and the rest of the Western world. Opposition to Islam, in specific, and religion, in general, has too long been viewed as a great taboo. But, if the very rules that allow us the live in liberty are at risk, how can we remain silent? The only way that modern Western society has been able to find more peace, equality, and freedom than any other civilization in human history is through secularization. Any force that tries to reinstate the terror, absolutism, and violence that is inherent to fundamentalist religious faith must be fought. Not with weapons, that is counterproductive and hypocritical, but with words, our greatest asset. To quote Voltaire, “So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men.”

Listed below are the various sources of the polls mentioned above:

http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/musl...and-hezbollah/

http://news.scotsman.com/uk/77-bombi...y-a.2798950.jp

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html

http://markhumphrys.com/islam.uk.html


If there are any other questions regarding the validity of my factual claims, I would be glad to provide links. I am sure, however, that a quick Google search will corroborate them all.

[Wucker]

Spoken like a true American. "If you don't like XXXX, then get out!"

[Wucker]

Firstly, I read your little "spoiler" thing - I was being ironic, but this is the internet after all. Secondly, I did copy and paste it from word, because my writing ran pretty long. Lastly, you are merely taking the easy route by throwing out the term "ignorance" without substantiating it in the least.

[Logi]

Any chance of a tl;dr? Three posts is kinda pushing it

[Wucker]

(Original post by Logi)
Any chance of a tl;dr? Three posts is kinda pushing it

I know, I know, but what can I say, I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to these things.

[basketofsnakes]

all you need to do is visit the ****hole website http://www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?10-General and view the multiple daily west bashing threads to see how much they hate the west and anything that's not islam, and don't even get me started on islamic awakening forum

[Wucker]

(Original post by basketofsnakes)
all you need to do is visit the ****hole website http://www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?10-General and view the many west bashing threads to see how much they hate the west and anything that goes against islam

Thats the thing, when you actually look at what the average Muslim in the UK believes, it is kind of scary. I mean, they are, of course, entitled to their opinions. The problem, though, is that they don't think others should be entitled to hold their own opinions.

[super.teve]

(Original post by Wucker)
Thats the thing, when you actually look at what the average Muslim in the UK believes, it is kind of scary. I mean, they are, of course, entitled to their opinions. The problem, though, is that they don't think others should be entitled to hold their own opinions.

"They", and where is your sociological evidence so show that "they" think that?
YOUR PROBLEM,- generalising with no basis.
Fool, you cannot simply make that comment and disregard it as if it's a fact, it is simply not the case that 1.57 billion people hold that view.

Pathetic, you seem to be quite the thinker, yet cannot master the art of generalising only in circumstance when you can prove your point beyond such paradoxical stereotypes...

Secondly, drop the whole "us versus them" mentality, there is no "they" there is only a collective, those social divisions are regressive, pointless and moronic.

Please also stop thinking you're a new wave of thinker, what you have said has been said, documented, discussed and heard before, by people who are above and beyond your caliber, so sorry to burst that little bubble you seem to have created for yourself.
Oh sorry...Wucker has all the answers in his generalisations and hypocritical views.

"circumvent secular British law",- YOU HAVE NO CLUE, you seem to have been reading anti-Muslim propaganda on the internet, HAHAAHAHAHA.

[planetearth]

(Original post by Wucker)
Thats the thing, when you actually look at what the average Muslim in the UK believes, it is kind of scary. I mean, they are, of course, entitled to their opinions. The problem, though, is that they don't think others should be entitled to hold their own opinions.

Get your facts right. Muslims are often blindly critcisized in Britain for being "un - British" (whatever that means). Yet many people who say this have never even met any Muslims, or only a very few.

What is actually scary is how many people stereotype us and what they expect us to be.

Look at factual evidence rather than copy and paste some nonsense material from a xenophobic website:
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/uk...than-b/456344/

[GEN.]

(Original post by basketofsnakes)
all you need to do is visit the ****hole website http://www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?10-General and view the multiple daily west bashing threads to see how much they hate the west and anything that goes against islam, and don't even get me started on islamic awakening forum

lol, so a billion Muslims post there? Besides those two websites tend to draw a certain kind of group of Muslims. Thats like me saying 'Hmmm, I want to see what British people think about Asians' and then go to Stormfront (nazi) website and then claim all British people are racist nazis.

(Original post by Wucker)
Thats the thing, when you actually look at what the average Muslim in the UK believes, it is kind of scary. I mean, they are, of course, entitled to their opinions. The problem, though, is that they don't think others should be entitled to hold their own opinions.

How do you know that that is the 'average' Muslim, its people like you that are pushing Muslims into the extreme corner.

[hamijack]

TL;DR

[rajandkwameali]

I think most countries in the world are by nature multi-cultural. It's simply the modern PC society that looks down on multi-culturalism.

Having said that though, I think that multi-culturalism shouldn't exist. People should be forced, as new entrants into a country, to adhere to the general moral/social values of their new society.

[andygcfc]

Just out of interest, do any of you work or socialise with people of other cultures to your own? Im assuming you do, but I just want to make sure...

[rajandkwameali]

Yes, I am not white myself. The town I grew up in was highly multi-cultural.

[super.teve]

Any force that tries to reinstate the terror, absolutism, and violence

,- what why be so hypocritical, I thought that's what America does?

[Uneschka]

Okay so basically you just used the excuse of discussing multiculturalism to give your opinion on how most Muslims in Britain are a threat to western civilisation? Sigh. What an original thought. Next time you want to make such a lazy argument, please just be open about it and don't try to disguise it - would've saved me a lot of reading.

[Wucker]

I would suggest that those of you point out my use of "generalizations" actually look at the links I provided. The simple fact is, on a myriad of issues large numbers of Muslims in the UK are extremely conservative. And, again, if you look at worldwide numbers, this is even more true. The point of polls is to provide a relatively accurate snapshot of a groups opinion of various matters. I think you will find that, when you look at the snapshot of UK Muslims, you will see many disconcerting trends.

It is impossible to actually create completely accurate generalizations, but if you look at the data available, I think you will find my points are not unsubstantiated.

[Wucker]

(Original post by Uneschka)
Okay so basically you just used the excuse of discussing multiculturalism to give your opinion on how most Muslims in Britain are a threat to western civilisation? Sigh. What an original thought. Next time you want to make such a lazy argument, please just be open about it and don't try to disguise it - would've saved me a lot of reading.

I am using Islamic culture in the UK to demostrate my main point which is that, in every culture, there are problematic aspects. You dismiss, it would seem, my assertion that aspects of Islamic culture run counter to Western ideas regarding equality, freedom of expression, and freedom of and from religion. I wish, though, that you would actually address the sources I provided. I think you would find them to be quite eye-opening.

Perhaps the most pertinent figure is a poll done regarding opinion of the Dutch cartoonists who depicted the Prophet Mohammad. An overwhelming 80% of British Muslims think that they should have been arrested and prosecuted. In other words, 4/5 Muslims, according to this poll, believe that those who commit blasphemy, or, more accurately, speak their minds, should be jailed. Do you honestly not see a problem with that?