[ZZ9]

It is pretty depressing, isn't it. I clearly need to get better at anonymous identities. I thought "I'm from Hull and I'm gay" was anonymous enough, to be honest :P

I do actually know a couple of girls in my year, but I shared a mutual dislike with one, and didn't know the other was bi until after she'd left. Shame really.

[there's too much love]

(Original post by SmallTownGirl)
WHAT? I'm gay and slightly genderqueer and thus I have to read all about it. I don't care if anyone else has the same opinion as me. I identify the way I feel.

WHAT? Someone on TSR being actively ignorant and refusing to believe that a well acclaimed piece of well and academically thought out writing might actually contain useful information and help them to understand concepts that seem to be just a little bit beyond them for the moment...oh yeah sorry, the answer to the question I was about to pose is in the first 4 words "Someone on TSR".
I forget there are people on this forum with a lack of intellect[ual curiosity].

[Serenb]

(Original post by there's too much love)

WHAT? Someone on TSR being actively ignorant and refusing to believe that a well acclaimed piece of well and academically thought out writing might actually contain useful information and help them to understand concepts that seem to be just a little bit beyond them for the moment...oh yeah sorry, the answer to the question I was about to pose is in the first 4 words "Someone on TSR".
I forget there are people on this forum with a lack of intellect[ual curiosity].

It didn't feel as though you were trying to help her understand but rather to force your opinion over her. You offended her and then insulted her intellect, well done! I think you need to do some work on your delivery, then people might be more inclined to listen to you.

Personally I feel similar to smalltowngirl in that outwardly I appear feminine and I like to dress and act feminine but I think more like a man and in some ways I identify more with men because we think similarly. My best friend is straight and male and I feel more like one of the boys than one of the girls. I like maths and science and talking about bikes and cars etc.

My sister takes this further and is more polar than I am, she is far more feminine and dresses and acts more feminine. She loves make up and clothes and she is very trendy. Although she is also extremely confident and dominant which sometimes makes her appear more masculine as those qualities or at least how she expresses them are not often found in women and a lot of her friends call her a man not because she looks like one, far from it, but she definitely thinks like one. She however is straight and has no interest in women as I have no interest in men.
So fair enough environmental factors have obviously contributed to why we are as we are, because we were brought up in similar circumstances but it doesn't explain the difference in our sexuality and further more we have a half sister who also displays similar characteristics but is older and grew up on the other side of the world to where we were, without our common parent.

My sister has more knowledge on this subject than I do, as she did psychology funny enough at Hull university, but we both have a similar opinion in thinking that its the concentration of different hormones during pregnancy and while growing up that probably has a lot to do with the differences between us and other female bodied women. Apart from dna, human foetuses are the same until hormones are released which account for our biological differences. Our theory could be wrong and perhaps its because we were born and conceived in an area with high levels of ddt in the ground, which had some kind of influence over our development. Obviously we lean more to the scientific approach, but we don't know for sure and to say there is one definitive theory that explains it all is wrong. Theories are opinions until proven otherwise and I think we still have a way to go before we can explain many of the complexities on an individual basis.

I read a synopsis of the book you suggested and it sounds interesting and I think I would enjoy reading it. My initial take on it, is that if gender and sex are socially constructed then surely the outcome is dependent on the experiences of the individual. I obviously have to read it more in depth and get back to you whether it changes any of my current opinions.

[Serenb]

(Original post by kerily)
How is the internet such a small place? But yes, yes I am!

(It's quite depressing that there are so few non-straight XX people in our area that I automatically knew it had to be you.)

(Original post by ZZ9)
It is pretty depressing, isn't it. I clearly need to get better at anonymous identities. I thought "I'm from Hull and I'm gay" was anonymous enough, to be honest :P

I do actually know a couple of girls in my year, but I shared a mutual dislike with one, and didn't know the other was bi until after she'd left. Shame really.

My sister is friends with one of the guys who runs the LGBT society at Hull University and when I went to visit her last year. He told me I should apply there because the intake for girls in the society that year was huge by their standards, 30 I think he said.
You clearly need to infiltrate

[there's too much love]

(Original post by Serenb)
It didn't feel as though you were trying to help her understand but rather to force your opinion over her. You offended her and then insulted her intellect, well done! I think you need to do some work on your delivery, then people might be more inclined to listen to you.

Personally I feel similar to smalltowngirl in that outwardly I appear feminine and I like to dress and act feminine but I think more like a man and in some ways I identify more with men because we think similarly. My best friend is straight and male and I feel more like one of the boys than one of the girls. I like maths and science and talking about bikes and cars etc.

My sister takes this further and is more polar than I am, she is far more feminine and dresses and acts more feminine. She loves make up and clothes and she is very trendy. Although she is also extremely confident and dominant which sometimes makes her appear more masculine as those qualities or at least how she expresses them are not often found in women and a lot of her friends call her a man not because she looks like one, far from it, but she definitely thinks like one. She however is straight and has no interest in women as I have no interest in men.
So fair enough environmental factors have obviously contributed to why we are as we are, because we were brought up in similar circumstances but it doesn't explain the difference in our sexuality and further more we have a half sister who also displays similar characteristics but is older and grew up on the other side of the world to where we were, without our common parent.

My sister has more knowledge on this subject than I do, as she did psychology funny enough at Hull university, but we both have a similar opinion in thinking that its the concentration of different hormones during pregnancy and while growing up that probably has a lot to do with the differences between us and other female bodied women. Apart from dna, human foetuses are the same until hormones are released which account for our biological differences. Our theory could be wrong and perhaps its because we were born and conceived in an area with high levels of ddt in the ground, which had some kind of influence over our development. Obviously we lean more to the scientific approach, but we don't know for sure and to say there is one definitive theory that explains it all is wrong. Theories are opinions until proven otherwise and I think we still have a way to go before we can explain many of the complexities on an individual basis.

I read a synopsis of the book you suggested and it sounds interesting and I think I would enjoy reading it. My initial take on it, is that if gender and sex are socially constructed then surely the outcome is dependent on the experiences of the individual. I obviously have to read it more in depth and get back to you whether it changes any of my current opinions.

The reason I posted my last post was because I'm not going to ever have a positive reaction to someone throwing a reading suggestion, and a damned good one which commands so much respect in this field, thrown back in my face in such a ridiculous manner by someone who comes across as a child in this area.
I wasn't making any demands on them, I was merely trying to explain that they ought to read gender trouble. They're reaction was to throw that back in my face as if I had said something gravely offensive. The reason why is because they became overly defensive at the mere thought that their theory was being challenged on an intellectual basis.

Moving on from that, I see what you're saying about environmental factors, however so much of the time they're so subtle, they're not something we will just notice. On that basis they can't be dismissed as a factor.

And on the basis of social constructions the book was fairly influenced by Foucault's work, in many ways I see large elements of it as an application of his general theory about knowledge/power regimes, where they come from and how they work. I've actually recently written and received feedback on two essays, the first was something like "Is Gendered behaviour innate? Make reference to the biological sciences" and the second was "Does the anatomical body exist outside of culture" (which is a lovely ambiguous question). The second one was on Foucault. So if you're interested I can show you the bibliographies; they're not overly extensive.

[SmallTownGirl]

(Original post by there's too much love)

WHAT? Someone on TSR being actively ignorant and refusing to believe that a well acclaimed piece of well and academically thought out writing might actually contain useful information and help them to understand concepts that seem to be just a little bit beyond them for the moment...oh yeah sorry, the answer to the question I was about to pose is in the first 4 words "Someone on TSR".
I forget there are people on this forum with a lack of intellect[ual curiosity].

I don't actually care about sociology. I'm a physicist. And I don't need to know what some academic thinks to understand my sexuality and gender identity. I've been told who to be enough that it's time to only listen to myself.

Oh, and thanks for calling my childish when you clearly have never questioned any part of who you are in relation to social norms.

[there's too much love]

(Original post by SmallTownGirl)
I don't actually care about sociology. I'm a physicist. And I don't need to know what some academic thinks to understand my sexuality and gender identity. I've been told who to be enough that it's time to only listen to myself.

Oh, and thanks for calling my childish when you clearly have never questioned any part of who you are in relation to social norms.

Oh Christ on a cross you don't know the half of it.

I'm not telling you who you are, I'm saying you're not understanding how the language and concepts that are gender work.
The way in which you're talking about it doesn't make sense.

The very fact that you can't make the distinction between a theory of prescription and a theory of description only goes to show you're complete lack of knowledge in this area.

[Eveiebaby]

(Original post by there's too much love)
Oh Christ on a cross you don't know the half of it.[/B]

I'm not telling you who you are, I'm saying you're not understanding how the language and concepts that are gender work.
The way in which you're talking about it doesn't make sense.

The very fact that you can't make the distinction between a theory of prescription and a theory of description only goes to show you're complete lack of knowledge in this area.

Just my two cents not that it's worth much but I think the simple point being made is that smalltowngirl doesnt feel the need to question herself and she feels perfectly happy with the way she sees herself without needing to read up a load of material about it, however good it might be. She is herself and is happy. Some people don't feel the need to read around everything.

She's not purposefully dismissing your knowledge in the area; it's just simply about feeling the need to question yourself when you are already happy with where you are with yourself.

It seems that you feel more uncomfortable with the way she feels that she does......

[there's too much love]

(Original post by Eveiebaby)
Just my two cents not that it's worth much but I think the simple point being made is that smalltowngirl doesnt feel the need to question herself and she feels perfectly happy with the way she sees herself without needing to read up a load of material about it, however good it might be. She is herself and is happy. Some people don't feel the need to read around everything.

She's not purposefully dismissing your knowledge in the area; it's just simply about feeling the need to question yourself when you are already happy with where you are with yourself.

It seems that you feel more uncomfortable with the way she feels that she does......

I have no problem with her feeling happy about herself.
However if she makes assertions about concepts like gender, and about social norms, and then claims that she is right, whilst refusing to even consider reading a relatively short, well written easy to understand critically acclaimed book that will clear up some basic things, I do take issue.

I also love the fact that I mention Foucault (admittedly not in a post where I'm talking to her) and then she claims I've not challenged social norms with regards to who I am.

[Eveiebaby]

(Original post by there's too much love)
I have no problem with her feeling happy about herself.
However if she makes assertions about concepts like gender, and about social norms, and then claims that she is right, whilst refusing to even consider reading a relatively short, well written easy to understand critically acclaimed book that will clear up some basic things, I do take issue.

I also love the fact that I mention Foucault (admittedly not in a post where I'm talking to her) and then she claims I've not challenged social norms with regards to who I am.

I have read the posts again and I think she is only speaking in terms of being right about herself. She's not purposefully extrapolating any data as meaningful beyond how she defines herself and to be honest I'm not suprised she's feeling a little ruffled (as you come across a bit pushy with your viewpoint I don't know if you mean to)as I'm not suprised you may be for reason of her challenging you. After all, you know yourself better than most people ever will.

I think it's simply a case of you can read all the theory you like in the world. Most of them are still theories and cannot be used to explain every case. Theories have limits. People are people and are by nature very unpredictable which brings me to the conclusion that neither of you will win this argument.

Neither of you are right and neither of you are wrong. It's just a case of agreeing to disagree I reckon.

[there's too much love]

(Original post by Eveiebaby)
I have read the posts again and I think she is only speaking in terms of being right about herself. She's not purposefully extrapolating any data as meaningful beyond how she defines herself and to be honest I'm not suprised she's feeling a little ruffled (as you come across a bit pushy with your viewpoint I don't know if you mean to)as I'm not suprised you may be for reason of her challenging you. After all, you know yourself better than most people ever will.

I think it's simply a case of you can read all the theory you like in the world. Most of them are still theories and cannot be used to explain every case. Theories have limits. People are people and are by nature very unpredictable which brings me to the conclusion that neither of you will win this argument.

Neither of you are right and neither of you are wrong. It's just a case of agreeing to disagree I reckon.

Aside from the paradox from the bold, that bold bit is simply wrong anyway.
And you can argue it that I was being pushy if you want, but I don't think I was, I made my position very clear, and she argued against it in a stupid manner.

[The.Night.Watch.Woman]

Jen, nearly 17, Liverpool - nice to meet you all
I've read around the thread - I see the trouble with Ladies and Transgendered being together in the thread title - I'm presuming however that this thread is for Lesbian, Bi-sexual and Transgendered females, and this thread is a good way to get us women together - as, to be honest, I feel the LGBT society is predominantly male?
There are certainly, from my own experiences, more gay males on the scene than there are females!
This however may be narrow-minded of me, I have only been on the scene for a couple of years at most...

Plus - the men that come on this thread to discuss lesbian pornography... You make me feel sick; women are violated and exposed everyday for your pleasure. It's disgusting.

[there's too much love]

(Original post by The.Night.Watch.Woman)
Jen, nearly 17, Liverpool - nice to meet you all
I've read around the thread - I see the trouble with Ladies and Transgendered being together in the thread title - I'm presuming however that this thread is for Lesbian, Bi-sexual and Transgendered females, and this thread is a good way to get us women together - as, to be honest, I feel the LGBT society is predominantly male?
There are certainly, from my own experiences, more gay males on the scene than there are females!
This however may be narrow-minded of me, I have only been on the scene for a couple of years at most...

Plus - the men that come on this thread to discuss lesbian pornography... You make me feel sick; women are violated and exposed everyday for your pleasure. It's disgusting.

I'm no sure how relevant I think sex or gender are to that. However I want to throw out the notion that if coercion isn't involved, it's fairly hard to argue against pornography or prostitution for that matter.

[SmallTownGirl]

(Original post by there's too much love)
Aside from the paradox from the bold, that bold bit is simply wrong anyway.
And you can argue it that I was being pushy if you want, but I don't think I was, I made my position very clear, and she argued against it in a stupid manner.

God. If only you knew me you'd understand that after everything what I feel is right for me. No-one else matters. And the people who matter to me understand. You've ruined my day. Possibly my whole week before it's really started. And all because you think some academic knows more about my gender identity, my sexuality, me than I do. That academic hasn't spent the last ten years in my head - scared, trying to escape, trapped. I'm finally comfortable with who I am. Who gave you the right to say that's wrong. You can read your books all you like, but to understand myself I don't need to.

[there's too much love]

(Original post by SmallTownGirl)
God. If only you knew me you'd understand that after everything what I feel is right for me. No-one else matters. And the people who matter to me understand. You've ruined my day. Possibly my whole week before it's really started. And all because you think some academic knows more about my gender identity, my sexuality, me than I do. That academic hasn't spent the last ten years in my head - scared, trying to escape, trapped. I'm finally comfortable with who I am. Who gave you the right to say that's wrong. You can read your books all you like, but to understand myself I don't need to.

If this were simply the case of one agent I might agree with you. But this is very much related to societal constructs. The very point I'm making is that the way in which your talking about gender simply doesn't work. Does that mean that that in some way changes who you are? Well that depends on who you are in the first place.
However my point is you're talking about something different.
And what on Earth is wrong with you to put so much authority in what some random person on the internet thinks?
I fail to believe that anyone in our society who is capable of typing in coherent English is incapable of both being comfortable with who they are whilst critically assessing themselves, their arguments, and other peoples arguments and observations.

I'm flattered that you put emotional authority in what I say (and I'm speaking sincerely), that I actually hold enough weight to ruin your week over so few words. But ask yourself this, is what someone you want to be? From the amount of information that we've posted about specific personal issues, there is no evidence that makes it foreseeable that I'd trigger something to upset you so much that you'd make the claim that your week might be ruined because of it.

I think there's also an important distinction to make.
There's a difference between you saying who you are, and making a claim about how gender[ed identity] works.
A difference between seeing where you fall into a theory, whether the theory has a downfall because it doesn't take you into account (in which case you need to know what that theory says) and you arguing that what you say about something that theory is talking about, is right whilst that theory is wrong.

[Eveiebaby]

(Original post by there's too much love)
Aside from the paradox from the bold, that bold bit is simply wrong anyway.
And you can argue it that I was being pushy if you want, but I don't think I was, I made my position very clear, and she argued against it in a stupid manner.

Theories only work with a certain amount of confidence which means that there is always going to be a margin of error, no matter how small. What this means is that there can always be an exception to the rule and I think it's a bit arrogant of you to suggest that someone is wrong about themselves by pushing (in a high and mighty 'you know nothing and are an idiot' way) in their direction reading material without knowing a person in real life. People are people. Feelings are so difficult to measure, quantify and separate without knowing/controlling for the impossibly numerous environmental influences on each individual. I feel it would be very difficult to find a theory which would neatly 'fit all' for certain behaviours and attitudes because of this. Theories are the closest things we have to truths but they are not neccessarily complete truths and have their limitations.

[DomDyke]

Hey, I'm Dom. I'm gay, 18, and from Essex Hoping to go Chester University to study TV Production & Media Studies

[SmallTownGirl]

(Original post by there's too much love)
If this were simply the case of one agent I might agree with you. But this is very much related to societal constructs. The very point I'm making is that the way in which your talking about gender simply doesn't work. Does that mean that that in some way changes who you are? Well that depends on who you are in the first place.
However my point is you're talking about something different.
And what on Earth is wrong with you to put so much authority in what some random person on the internet thinks?
I fail to believe that anyone in our society who is capable of typing in coherent English is incapable of both being comfortable with who they are whilst critically assessing themselves, their arguments, and other peoples arguments and observations.

I'm flattered that you put emotional authority in what I say (and I'm speaking sincerely), that I actually hold enough weight to ruin your week over so few words. But ask yourself this, is what someone you want to be? From the amount of information that we've posted about specific personal issues, there is no evidence that makes it foreseeable that I'd trigger something to upset you so much that you'd make the claim that your week might be ruined because of it.

I think there's also an important distinction to make.
There's a difference between you saying who you are, and making a claim about how gender[ed identity] works.
A difference between seeing where you fall into a theory, whether the theory has a downfall because it doesn't take you into account (in which case you need to know what that theory says) and you arguing that what you say about something that theory is talking about, is right whilst that theory is wrong.

I'm depressed and have an eating disorder. I'm just getting over a friend who liked to put me down and tell me what I felt is wrong. Is that enough?

I have no idea what you're saying. But I don't care. Just accept some people don't need to understand exactly how to academic views 'gender' to understand their own.

[there's too much love]

(Original post by SmallTownGirl)
I'm depressed and have an eating disorder. I'm just getting over a friend who liked to put me down and tell me what I felt is wrong. Is that enough?

I have no idea what you're saying. But I don't care. Just accept some people don't need to understand exactly how to academic views 'gender' to understand their own.

I'm not going to accept something I honestly don't believe is true in this instance.
Moreover your depressed, okay, you have an eating disorder, these are hardly rare, you're getting over a love interest who was being a manipulative ********. The vast majority of people have been there, but that doesn't answer the question of why you're validating yourself through some random internet person.

As for the second half of the post, the fact that you have no idea what I'm saying is exactly the problem.

[Davezk]

Why segregate yourself if you want to be treated like everyone else?