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Q for all who are undecided about God, the don't-knowers ...

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    Lets say you live in Christchurch New Zealand, or any Pacific island or coastal area ... you have escaped what has already happened and you have seen the sudden death of thousands in Japan and you know the same could happen to you tonight ... does this have any effect on your desire to find the salvation that Christians talk about?
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    Why, Pascal's wager?
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    Why, Pascal's wager?
    No, your response... maybe it's too difficult because it's so far away and it's all nothing but a hypothetical argument to you?
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    It wouldn't have any impact on my beliefs.
    I'm somewhere between agnostic and atheist. Having studied geography for a few years I definitely do not assume that a supernatural being causes major earthquakes - they're natural disasters which happen near fault boundaries because of the way which tectonic plates move.

    The chances of a 9.0 magnitude earthquake hitting north west england tonight is basically zero compared to, say, chile or another part of the 'ring of fire'.

    If anything it reduces any chance that I could believe that an omniscient and omnipotent supernatural being created this world as there would be no reason to kill thousands of people who are essentially good.
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    (Original post by NJA)
    Lets say you live in Christchurch New Zealand, or any Pacific island or coastal area ... you have escaped what has already happened and you have seen the sudden death of thousands in Japan and you know the same could happen to you tonight ... does this have any effect on your desire to find the salvation that Christians talk about?
    The Jews believe that only the Torah can save. Christians believe otherwise. The Jews of this century believe that all the catastrophes and natural distasters occured because of too little Torah study.

    Between Judaism and Christianity is there anything else?
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    (Original post by NJA)
    No, your response... maybe it's too difficult because it's so far away and it's all nothing but a hypothetical argument to you?
    Not sure I could honestly seek salvation in a god who was capable of creating the very situation that made me seek it.

    Of course, if you're a deist then you wouldn't put natural disasters down to divine intervention. But then there would be no point in seeking salvation since a god so conceived would have no interest in human plight.
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    Not sure I could honestly seek salvation in a god who was capable of creating the very situation that made me seek it.

    Of course, if you're a deist then you wouldn't put natural disasters down to divine intervention. But then there would be no point in seeking salvation since a god so conceived would have no interest in human plight.
    I believe God created natural life, gave it to you and the fact that you choose not to end it shows that you percieve it to be good.
    You also know (at least I hope you do) that neither you or your parents could create it (or even a hair on your head).

    God also created the opportunity for you to receive his nature which includes eternal life such that how and when you die becomes irrelevant since you have found the one enduring thing you take from this fleeting existance.
    It's now all about how you live.. discovering your new potential as someone who works with God rather than an independant.
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    (Original post by NJA)
    Lets say you live in Christchurch New Zealand, or any Pacific island or coastal area ... you have escaped what has already happened and you have seen the sudden death of thousands in Japan and you know the same could happen to you tonight ... does this have any effect on your desire to find the salvation that Christians talk about?
    Shutup you cock
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    No.
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    (Original post by NJA)
    I believe God created natural life, gave it to you and the fact that you choose not to end it shows that you percieve it to be good.
    You also know (at least I hope you do) that neither you or your parents could create it (or even a hair on your head).

    God also created the opportunity for you to receive his nature which includes eternal life such that how and when you die becomes irrelevant since you have found the one enduring thing you take from this fleeting existance.
    It's now all about how you live.. discovering your new potential as someone who works with God rather than an independant.
    God is man made. And therefore God couldn't create life because that would just be a circular argument.
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    So youre saying that if I was in the fence and somehow I just escaped a disaster like that? or if by some slim chance it didn't didirectly affect me would that entice me to seek Christianity or religion?

    Only if I was already seeking it. Obviously I'm putting myself in 3rd person because I somewhat do believe, but I don't honestly know enough to say for sure or not.
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    (Original post by acies)
    God is man made. And therefore God couldn't create life because that would just be a circular argument.
    You start with an un-proven premise so the rest of your argument is a waste of time.
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    (Original post by NJA)
    I believe God created natural life, gave it to you and the fact that you choose not to end it shows that you percieve it to be good.
    You also know (at least I hope you do) that neither you or your parents could create it (or even a hair on your head).

    God also created the opportunity for you to receive his nature which includes eternal life such that how and when you die becomes irrelevant since you have found the one enduring thing you take from this fleeting existance.
    It's now all about how you live.. discovering your new potential as someone who works with God rather than an independant.
    The fact that humans cannot, in a laboratory create a hair on a head or a human life is simply a fact of scientific lack. science through man has created structures much stronger than hair, and tools much more useful to protect people from the sun, but in the end, hair is completely chemical. It is a chemical compound of interconnected molecules, which does not prove the existance of God. I believe in a God because I find it peronally comforting, but I don't mix what that with any of my everyday activities, in my opinion, God does not affect any lives, there was merely a greater power that created us, like Mother Nature has no interest in us personally. much like Nietzsche so candidly put it, God is dead. But that's what I personally find most fulfilling, I also am aware other beliefs such as Atheism or Christianity or Wicca or what have you do the trick for others. If so, that's great. As long as it works for you and it's socially beneficial, I'm big on supporting it. That's mre important than what you believe.
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    (Original post by NJA)
    You start with an un-proven premise so the rest of your argument is a waste of time.
    Right back at you?

    Prove God. Empirically and beyond doubt.
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    (Original post by TomInce6666)
    Right back at you?

    Prove God. Empirically and beyond doubt.
    What do you mean empirically?

    What would constitute proof?

    One can look at DNA and conclude that this mechanism could not have evolved.It is counter-science to believe that it did.

    One can look at how bible prophecies were fulfilled to the letter, many years after God gave them.

    One could look at how people found the salvation God offers, a life they never had before - this is God's primary concern at this time - he fulfils his agenda.
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    (Original post by NJA)
    What do you mean empirically?

    What would constitute proof?

    One can look at DNA and conclude that this mechanism could not have evolved.It is counter-science to believe that it did.

    One can look at how bible prophecies were fulfilled to the letter, many years after God gave them.

    One could look at how people found the salvation God offers, a life they never had before - this is God's primary concern at this time - he fulfils his agenda.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism

    By proof, one would need sufficient evidence or a strong enough argument to support your proposition. Evidence must be trustworthy and infallible.

    I fail to see how either of your examples fulfill any of these criteria. They're all hearsay.
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    (Original post by NJA)
    Lets say you live in Christchurch New Zealand, or any Pacific island or coastal area ... you have escaped what has already happened and you have seen the sudden death of thousands in Japan and you know the same could happen to you tonight ... does this have any effect on your desire to find the salvation that Christians talk about?
    Simply, no. I don't think fear would force me to revise my stand-point with regards to afterlife and God's existence.
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    in my opinion, I am an atheist, not an agnostic any more. I suppose there is still part of me that wants to believe but, this is contradicted by facts and common sense. However i respect religion, as although it has caused a lot of problems, it has also done a lot of good, and given a lot of people the hope and strength to carry on through the bad times. Although i don't believe in it, the world would be missing something vital without religion, despite all the wars it has caused

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