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Top 10 Reasons Why Jesus is not God

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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    Jesus is obviously not God, nor even the son of God, and the doctrine of the Trinity was enforced by Catholic Dogma.

    There were many Gods, and many sons of Gods before Christianity ever came about. Even the trinity is not an original idea, having existed in the religious doctrines of the ancient Pagans for thousands of years.
    Dogma is a doctrine or code of beliefs. We believe that He is the Son of God and therefore God along with the Trinity, because that is what is proclaimed in the Bible. That was the teaching of Jesus. Passed down to and taught by His Apostles; Peter being our Pope.

    Catholic teaching of Son of God is not in the same sense as that of the sons of ancient idols. Jesus was not born nor created from the Father. It is clearly stated within the Creed: "begotten not made".

    Q&A about Creed:
    http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/qui.../keyword/creed

    Along with the Father, and the Holy Spirit, Three Divine Persons in one Divine Being/God (Similar to that of a three part clover. Three different parts, together in one leaf). Existing and always existing.

    That is what is taught. As it is true. And unlike nor similar to any pegan idea or thought.

    For the picture, please explain how it is anything similar to that of Iris.

    Saint Mary is not a goddess nor any idol. We do not worship her.
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    That was possibly some of the worst pieces of reasoning and scriptural exegesis I think I've seen. I doubt anyone would have a hard time countering such weak claims.
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    Reason 10 - God cannot be born, but it was only Jesus' human body that was born, not his divinity.

    Reason 9 - "The Father and I are one." Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. Jesus said, "At my Father's direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?" They replied, "We're stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God"

    Reason 8 - The video talks about people not witnessing "God the Father". But Jesus was "God the Son"
    Also, "The Father and I are one".

    Reason 7 - Jesus' coming was prophesised in the Old Testament

    Reason 6 - Jesus needed to sustain his human body. His human body was mortal, as shown by his death on the cross. He prayed because his primary mission was to teach others how to worship and he led by example.

    Reason 5 - There are many examples of Jesus having knowledge beyond that of an ordinary human. He knew in advance about Judas' betrayal and his own death. Although the video makes a strong point, I just happen to believe otherwise

    Reason 4 - Jesus' statements about being/not being God are subject to interpretation.

    Reason 3 - The Son of God title has been used for Adam, but Adam was created as a human, not as part of the Trinity

    Reason 2 - Jesus was both fully human and fully divine. It was only Jesus' human nature which was subject to earthly laws, not his divinity.

    Reason 1 - There are passages in the Bible in which Jesus tells people to worship him. Again, it depends on interpretation.
    I would argue that when Jesus tells people not to worship him, he means his human self - the human "shell" if you like, and to instead worship the divine side.


    For the record, I have watched the whole show posted in the thread and really appreciate that some of their arguments are strong. I do not study theology, these are just my own opinions.
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    (Original post by da_nolo)
    You seem adamant in limiting the ability of God, of whom is a mystery to the human race due to our finite brains.

    Let's use them to think what Jesus is quoted in saying. If he was a prophet, then when healing others He would have said -as past prophets had said- "in the name of God". However, He is not quoted for saying the such...is He? I don't remember a single quote as it. He does mention His Father, the Lord...our Lord God many times. However it is not done in the same sense. It is not done to call upon Him for power or heal or any sort of ability.

    Jesus is also quoted in saying that He is the Son of God, along with being God. A true prophet would never say that. So he either was God, or not God nor prophet. Yet how was He able to heal the sick? Why did He preach the Word of God?
    I probably didn't make it clear that I was a Muslim.

    In the Qur'an, the concept of God's Oneness is spread throughout and gravest sin a human can make is to associate another with Him.

    You can't possibly say that he must be the Son of God because he never said "in the name of God"? Maybe he did. Accounts can be flawed.

    And I know he never said he was the Son of God. EVER. There's why there's such a people called modern-day Christians and people called Muslims. It's where, it seems evident, we split.
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    Listen to chorus/check in desc.
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    (Original post by neny)
    No, in One Divine Entity there is only ONE. You seem adamant on this idea that God can divide into three entities.
    Christians do not believe that God divides into three entities. That is not the Biblical Trinity. Christians believe that God is one entity in three persons, not that God is three different entities.

    (Original post by neny)
    Jesus was human, like all other Prophets. If you do want to associate others with God then by all means do. It makes Christianity look like a joke tbh. For that you'll burn in Hell.
    The Bible is clear that as well as being fully human, Jesus was also fully God.
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    (Original post by da_nolo)
    Aye, God is ONE Divine Person. In One is Three Divine Persons. Still One however.

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp


    you may look further, however I think you have a bigger chance of ignoring it.
    May you make it clearer?

    Who are those people?

    I know noone of them is known to me so why can I trust them?
    There are people who believe that a cow is their god and an idol is their god and a piece of dirty stone is their god, what is the difference between your claim and their claim?

    As you know, the religion of The One True God must be distinct, clear, pure and supported with strong evidence as Jesus peace be upon him who was able to heal from uncurable diseases and bring life to dead after The God's will.

    What is your proof and I will believe you?
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    (Original post by Happy forever)
    May you make it clearer?

    Who are those people?

    I know none of them is known to me so why can I trust them?
    There are people who believe that a cow is their god and an idol is their god and a piece of dirty stone is their god, what is the difference between your claim and their claim?

    As you know, the religion of The One True God must be distinct, clear, pure and supported with strong evidence as Jesus peace be upon him who was able to heal from incurable diseases and bring life to dead after The God's will.

    What is your proof and I will believe you?
    Ha! And what do you qualify as proof? 'Proof' has a whole bunch of different meanings and qualifications under different people's ideals and desire. Some say they have a scientific view point, though what they are really saying is, "let me see". Well lets skip that portion for now and return to earlier question.

    All one needs to do is study and put in their own effort to actually study, instead of simply look. The link may help and the website will surely help (www.catholic.com). They even take questions such as your own.

    The Trinity is described best -in opinion- as St. Patrick did. The three leaf clover is actually one leaf with three leaflets. A leaflet may resemble an entire leaf, but it is not borne on a stem as a leaf is. Now the leaflet is a part of the leaf, but maintains distinct actions separate from the other 2 leaflets. However, all three leaflets count as the leaf. This is noticed similar with the Trinity. You have Three Divine Persons in One Divine Being.

    Another ruff example is the human being (with acceptance of the spirit). Your mind is not quite your body, and body is not quite like your mind. The two have always been considered different. Neither of the two are your spirit. However, all three are you, at the same time.

    If that does not better explain the Trinity, than I highly suggest visiting the website if you are actually interested in understanding it further. As for: "who are those people?" I am unsure what you are trying to get at. They are not people, and though distinct in certain ways, the three Persons are not different and are not actually separate. As it was explained to me, if One is present, they all are present...however only One may be committed to some action (i.e. Crucifix).

    As for being "distinct", this is very distinct. Trinity is unique to Christians(I am unaware as the Jewish view point as I have not put enough time to study their full viewpoint). nothing came from pagans, Egyptian gods, or some how eastern Asia as many try to ensure. Others try to say Virgin Birth has been done before, yet they speak only about another idol of whom can create something from nothing, so it is not unheard of; Saint Mary is somehow related to Iris, though they have no real connection at all as Mary is not an idol nor considered as such, nor does she carry or carried powers of her own; and what ever else anyone could try to conjure up may be easily taken down.

    Well that enough rant from me...this is getting too long. Is that sufficient? Except for the proof that you asked, though I'd rather understand what you could consider as proof.
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    (Original post by neny)
    I probably didn't make it clear that I was a Muslim.

    In the Qur'an, the concept of God's Oneness is spread throughout and gravest sin a human can make is to associate another with Him.

    You can't possibly say that he must be the Son of God because he never said "in the name of God"? Maybe he did. Accounts can be flawed.

    And I know he never said he was the Son of God. EVER. There's why there's such a people called modern-day Christians and people called Muslims. It's where, it seems evident, we split.
    huh...Christians and Muslims were split since...forever it seems. However, don't let this discourage you. We are cousins in a sense.

    As it already has been said by jmj; The Trinity is not distinct and different gods/idols.

    http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0811btb.asp
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    (Original post by da_nolo)
    Aye, God is ONE Divine Person. In One is Three Divine Persons. Still One however.

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp


    you may look further, however I think you have a bigger chance of ignoring it.
    That makes no sense. You can't be one person and three people.
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    Where is Bakmouth when ya need him?
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    I love arguments like these.

    There are so many illogical flaws in Christianity and Islam, you'd have to post a whole tonne of videos to even make a start.
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    (Original post by Bobifier)
    My mother (with the background of an Oxford theology degree) was explaining this. Apparently some time in the middle ages there were some sacred texts people had written stating that All aspects of God were in fact one and the same, and some sacred texts stating that they were three distinct but still divine entities. Some kind of religious convention was called partly to deal with this fact, and from it was born the Catholic belief - both of these things are simultaneously true, and you should just try not to think about the fact that it makes no sense. It's all a bit messed up.
    There is actually quite a lot of merit in this mixed up idea. Its a bit like quantum physics where something is both a particle and a wave,or something similar. It really demonstrates the limitations of the mind.
    Its a bit like those optical illusions. From one point of view the picture is a horse or something ,and then in a flash it is an old woman's head or summat. From the point of view of the individual you might say that god acts in three different ways : father,son,and holy ghost. From the point of view of the enlightened or self-realized person ,then everything is god ,so they declare 'i and my father are One'.
    The sufi mystic Al Halaj preached throughout Persia that ' I am the supreme reality ' ,and that jesus was the most perfect muslim. For this he was tortured to death,his body burnt and his ashes thrown into the euphrates . As his ashes drifted away they spelt out' i am the supreme reality' (ie I and my father are one '.
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    (Original post by da_nolo)
    You seem adamant in limiting the ability of God, of whom is a mystery to the human race due to our finite brains.

    Let's use them to think what Jesus is quoted in saying. If he was a prophet, then when healing others He would have said -as past prophets had said- "in the name of God". However, He is not quoted for saying the such...is He? I don't remember a single quote as it. He does mention His Father, the Lord...our Lord God many times. However it is not done in the same sense. It is not done to call upon Him for power or heal or any sort of ability.
    "My father is greater than I" (John 14:28)
    "My father is greater than all" (John 10:29)
    "I cannot myself do nothing" (John 5:30)

    Pretty obvious Jesus was powerless in his miracles and could only perform them when God allowed him to. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. God is God, eternal, all-powerful, all-knowing, and Jesus was prophet, a human being like the rest of us.

    Jesus is also quoted in saying that He is the Son of God, along with being God. A true prophet would never say that. So he either was God, or not God nor prophet. Yet how was He able to heal the sick? Why did He preach the Word of God?
    No, Jesus never said "I am God" or "worship me". FACT. He always pointed towards someone else, aka God, and that is what he preached and it is such a sad misfortune that his message has been misconstrued by millions of people; he was merely human, just like every other prophet that had ever existed.

    Son of God is misinterpreted by christians - it is just another way of acknowledging that we are created by God, and we could all infact refer to ourselves as "Sons of God".

    He was able to heal the sick because God allowed him to: "I cannot myself do nothing".

    I actually don't understand how you people seem to think that 3 = 1. God is God, Jesus was a human, and the holy spirit is nonsense.
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    (Original post by navarre)
    I love arguments like these.

    There are so many illogical flaws in Christianity and Islam, you'd have to post a whole tonne of videos to even make a start.
    Bet you haven't picked up the Bible/Quran in your life.
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    (Original post by A level Az)
    Bet you haven't picked up the Bible/Quran in your life.
    Bet again. I have many copies of the Bible, and have read the Gospels- the only worthwhile part of the thing, due to the good morality of Jesus. The rest is largely boring and redundant drivel.

    The Quran somehow manages the amazing feat of being an even more boring read than the Bible. I quit on the third Surah. It's repetitive, lacklustre nonsense. Neither of them appear to be sacred words from a divinity.
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    (Original post by da_nolo)
    Ha! And what do you qualify as proof? 'Proof' has a whole bunch of different meanings and qualifications under different people's ideals and desire. Some say they have a scientific view point, though what they are really saying is, "let me see". Well lets skip that portion for now and return to earlier question.

    All one needs to do is study and put in their own effort to actually study, instead of simply look. The link may help and the website will surely help (www.catholic.com). They even take questions such as your own.

    The Trinity is described best -in opinion- as St. Patrick did. The three leaf clover is actually one leaf with three leaflets. A leaflet may resemble an entire leaf, but it is not borne on a stem as a leaf is. Now the leaflet is a part of the leaf, but maintains distinct actions separate from the other 2 leaflets. However, all three leaflets count as the leaf. This is noticed similar with the Trinity. You have Three Divine Persons in One Divine Being.

    Another ruff example is the human being (with acceptance of the spirit). Your mind is not quite your body, and body is not quite like your mind. The two have always been considered different. Neither of the two are your spirit. However, all three are you, at the same time.

    If that does not better explain the Trinity, than I highly suggest visiting the website if you are actually interested in understanding it further. As for: "who are those people?" I am unsure what you are trying to get at. They are not people, and though distinct in certain ways, the three Persons are not different and are not actually separate. As it was explained to me, if One is present, they all are present...however only One may be committed to some action (i.e. Crucifix).

    As for being "distinct", this is very distinct. Trinity is unique to Christians(I am unaware as the Jewish view point as I have not put enough time to study their full viewpoint). nothing came from pagans, Egyptian gods, or some how eastern Asia as many try to ensure. Others try to say Virgin Birth has been done before, yet they speak only about another idol of whom can create something from nothing, so it is not unheard of; Saint Mary is somehow related to Iris, though they have no real connection at all as Mary is not an idol nor considered as such, nor does she carry or carried powers of her own; and what ever else anyone could try to conjure up may be easily taken down.

    Well that enough rant from me...this is getting too long. Is that sufficient? Except for the proof that you asked, though I'd rather understand what you could consider as proof.
    Thanks for your reply; you seem to be a good person.

    I mean by ‘those people’ the strange names in your link.

    Thanks again for talking about this concept ‘trinity’ and I would like to discuss the matter civilly and logically because I think that you respect your mind.


    So your god is like a leaf or a human consisted of parts. Leaf is three leaves in one leaf but you didn’t complete. A leaf has many sisters and her mother is a tree and the tree is one but with branches and leafs and stem and these three are one tree and the tree comes from ground and ground is part of the earth and the earth is part the universe and the universe is consisted of parts so the universe is created.

    The creation cannot be a god or compared to it.
    I am a creature with body and soul and I am one entity but consisted of parts and I am in need of my parts, do you think god needs anything?

    Jesus+Spirit+father

    Jesus: is it a name of a god? Ok this is not our subject.
    Jesus the man god and spirit the soul god and the father.
    Jesus who is made of dust, a child in side his mom, lactated by her, carried and grown and become a complete man with body and soul and calles upon people to believe in him as a god saying “I am a human like you, eat like you, excrete like you, sleep like you but still I am your god who created you although I didn’t create myself. People ofcourse didn’t believe him because he is a normal man not better than them (I think this is logical) so they decided to kill him but before killing him torure him. What a god.
    A god is tortured by his creatures. Your poor god couldn’t convince his creature that he is their god he begged them “Please believe me I am your god”. He is tortured, humiliated prevented from food which he cannot live without and finally failed in his holy mission to die and his body which is part of your common god is destroyed.


    The spirit: who don’t have spirit? I have a body and a soul and never says that I am a god. What spirit can do without body? Nothing.

    Father: the third part who sent his son no he sent himself to his creatures and supported his son noooo I mean supported himself with his spirit and is killed to be able to forgive those who killed him.

    Yes, your god is like a leaf coming from her father (tree) and dies and becomes dust and the tree produces seeds and seeds turned to be small trees (son) and the big tree dies and the small trees have another small trees and finally earth is full of leafs and trees.

    Who is the father of your god? Who is his mother? Does he have any sisters? Will he have grandchild?



    The One true God is Our and Only Creator, is not created. He is The First and The Last. He is not begotten nor begets. He is The Mighty, The Compeller, The Maker, The Bestower, The Provider, The All- Knower, The All-hearing, The All-Seeing,, The Most Strong, The Ever-Living.

    Do you think I need evidence to proof The One True God?

    You are the one here who is to show your proof.


    You ask me about the kind of evidence? Any evidence accepted by mind to make it easy for you.

    Waiting for your evidence.
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    (Original post by navarre)
    Bet again. I have many copies of the Bible, and have read the Gospels- the only worthwhile part of the thing, due to the good morality of Jesus. The rest is largely boring and redundant drivel.

    The Quran somehow manages the amazing feat of being an even more boring read than the Bible. I quit on the third Surah. It's repetitive, lacklustre nonsense. Neither of them appear to be sacred words from a divinity.
    Shakespeare is also boring when you read it with a closed mind. Perhaps you should try reading more than just three surahs; you could pick a part that sounds interesting such as the many scientific facts (moon reflecting light, black spots of the sun, speed of light, earth's iron core, layers of the atmosphere, sexes of plants, the water cycle, expanding universe, etc.), which is more than amazing for a book that was written 1400 years ago. And no it isn't bending/twisting the words to fit what we now know, if you actually read it then you'll see how all these things that we've only recently discovered in the last few centuries were written down in 600 AD. Proof of God I think.
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    Who ever said Jesus was G-d?
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    (Original post by A level Az)
    Shakespeare is also boring when you read it with a closed mind. Perhaps you should try reading more than just three surahs; you could pick a part that sounds interesting such as the many scientific facts (moon reflecting light, black spots of the sun, speed of light, earth's iron core, layers of the atmosphere, sexes of plants, the water cycle, expanding universe, etc.), which is more than amazing for a book that was written 1400 years ago. And no it isn't bending/twisting the words to fit what we now know, if you actually read it then you'll see how all these things that we've only recently discovered in the last few centuries were written down in 600 AD. Proof of God I think.
    The speed of light? Really? I must've missed to bit where Allah declared light speed to 300,000/s. Or where he says the earth is made of an iron core. Or the bit where he mentions red shift. Or condensation evaporation. Or even the repoductive systems of plants.

    Oh wait- I didn't miss it- it simply isn't there. Stop kidding yourself by thinking that some vague metaphors qualify as stringent scientific facts. They don't.
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