Race And Intelligence

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The fact that there is a genuis in that race shows that it is possible for people in that race to be genuises too, there is nothing biological stopping them as it didn't stop the genius.

I don't know why we are looking at African people here and making an assumption based on their IQ, it's not as if they have been exposed to books and good nutrition all their lives is it.

Who said Africans; what about the black people who live in the West. I suppose you will say something like but the black people in the West are poorer than their white counterparts, but what about poor Asians who work hard and do well?

Nobody said that blacks can't be geniuses; the question was if we took everyones iq an averaged it out, would the black people have a lower iq and would be more due to genes or environment?

Reply 81

Evangelica

Someone who lives and eats off the land doesn't need to understand integration or parametric equations. You can stick someone with an IQ of 100 in the wilderness and they would not know how to survive. Of course, the statistics are what they are but my black best friend has an IQ of 140 so ... and I'm sure if I was raised in the conditions that many people live in in Africa, my IQ would be around 70. I think it's to do with environment, not race.

Reply 82

manisbornfree

Far more likely to be social/cultural than racial. Scientific evidence supporting the idea of "race" is scarce/non existent and the vast majority of biologists have dismissed it as a myth. The socialisation process is what has influenced these scores, rather than genetic differences.

Reply 83

amsie/

Original post by PendulumBoB

Regardless of the race issue, I feel that it's about time we accepted that raw intelligence has far more to do with genes than upbringing. That's why non-identical siblings raised in the same household are good at different things. However good someones upbringing is, if they're not cut out to be a top scientist/footballer/author then they never will be one.

Hmm, I disagree. You're talking about siblings who'll have similar genetics, but you're using this to say they'll have differences in intelligence :s-smilie:

I personally would say it's down to environment :dontknow:

Have a look at this: http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/sloth/nisbett-on-rushton-and-jensen.pdf There's been quite a few different studies with different outcomes.

Reply 84

Casshern1456

Original post by whyumadtho

I would dispute the influence of culture is constant. Some cultures push their children to go into certain academic fields more than others.

You have ignored the impact of external variables. The environment in which the child is raised and social pressures creates vastly varying situations of development, as well as the child's personal drive playing a key role in the extent to which they retain knowledge and information.

I do believe the environment in which a child grows up is massively important and influences they're future but unless you generalize that Chinese kids don't lose a parent when they are young, or their parents get divorce or disowned or other tragic cases in which has hauled your development in life is irrelevant.
If you say Chiense kids work harder because they hjave more drive so other cultures of parents not want their child to work? or have they settled for 2nd best.

Reply 85

Jono404

Original post by manisbornfree

Scientific evidence supporting the idea of "race" is scarce/non existent and the vast majority of biologists have dismissed it as a myth.

I'm fairly sure it's been scientifically proven they are better at distance running

Reply 86

whyumadtho

Original post by Chi019

Again, that wouldn't explain why they still tend to do better in white households. Also, I'm not sure if you've read about adoption and twin studies generally. A significant amount of variation appears to be due to genetic variation:

http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/22333/

That sample size is very low to make inferences of hundreds of millions of people.

I fail to see how that has such a stark impact on the capacity to learn, and why anthropogenically defined race is used as the grouping variable. Why are so many people from different 'races' able to excel in different fields?

Original post by Jono404

I don't see what the big issue is with the race and intelligence debate, if black people are genetically better athletes, doesn't it stand to reason they could be genetically less intelligent too?

The ability to overcome physical restraints is far lower than the ability to overcome (apparent) mental ones.

Reply 87

'bob'

Well if you take a guy from "black africa" and put him in the same shoes as any other white kid (same upbringing and everything) surely he has the same chances of being "smart" or "dumb" as any other white kid. If you're saying no then you're actually saying there is a biological difference and that the human races are actually separate species :/ Surely this just reflects the difference in socio economic terms

Reply 88

Chi019

Original post by LipstickKisses

Again though we come to what I said about how do we actually measure intelligence? Are exam grades really the answer when they test memory skills and not application of knowledge or intelligence?

Well, memory is an aspect of intelligence. Also, ability to solve problems, recognise patterns, verbal abilities etc. In the US things like the SAT are a kind of intelligence or ability test.

While this finding may be surprising to many who take the test, it was no surprise to the researchers. The origins of the SAT can be traced back to intelligence tests that were originally given to screen entrants into the armed forces. Many who study intelligence had suspected that the SAT was an intelligence test though it seems no one had ever investigated the relationship...

Giving an IQ test can take 30 to 90 minutes, and with a correlation between IQ and SAT scores, researchers now have a fairly accurate estimate of an individual's IQ without the need to administer a lengthy test. Second, it is useful to know the relationship between the SAT and IQ so that SAT could be used as a measure of IQ in cases where patients' IQs decline due to head injury or diseases like Alzheimer's.

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/media/releases/2004/pr040329.cfm

Reply 89

damos92

Original post by PendulumBoB

Enviroment.

From what i've observed in my life, there are Asian people who do no work and are considered dumb, because at home they've never had the incentive to do well and there are Asian people who do really well and are considered clever because they were told the value of hard work.

Likewise with black people. One of my best mates has great, encouraging parents and thanks to that he always got top grades and is on his way to a great uni place. He's black.

Reply 90

whyumadtho

Original post by Jono404

I'm fairly sure it's been scientifically proven they are better at distance running

Again, the environment and fitness of the individual is responsible for this.

Reply 91

Casshern1456

Original post by dosvidaniya

You must be able to agree that Asian students are generally encouraged more academically than others right ? Based on my experiences and pretty much every persons I know, there are always Asian people who will work harder than others because they are just brought up like that. Case in point, there were 3 Asian people in my school and all 3 worked considerablky harder than everyone else. One of them was no smarter than average but he worked like **** (even used to come into school 2 hours early every day to revise) and got all *A's/A's. I'm not saying all Asians are like this, just that there is a disproportionate amount of these type of people in Asian students compared to
other races imo.

And why can't white/black/asian other races of parents do the same? you think only Chinese parents can be Tiger mums and dad, if the parents want the same from the children they'll do the same.

Reply 92

Chi019

Original post by 'bob'

No, you're confusing species with races or varieties. Species don't interbreed with each other. Different human groups do have different gene frequencies though which is why there is the potential for average group differences (look at the Olympic 100 metres sometime).

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 93

Reformed2010

If you placed a bunch of white European couples in your stereotypical hut village in Africa and they raised their children there. Their great grand children are likely to score poorly on IQ tests. Skin colour is not the cause of IQ, its your social-economic background.

This is like arguing people of black skin can't swim, because they have black skin. Ignoring the fact that it was because of the racial apartheid, that stopped black people swimming in public pools. Thus unable to learn the skill and install it in their culture. Also people are just ignorant to the fact that Caribbean island population have a long history of swimmers.

Reply 94

'bob'

Original post by Jono404

I'm fairly sure it's been scientifically proven they are better at distance running

That's only because of the conditions that they train under and the work they put in. Athletics and sports in general is seen as a way out of poverty in black countries and communities. Similar to the same way orientals may be smarter because of their stricter upbringings in regards to education.

And besides, the only long distance i can run is to mcdonalds lol. And i'm not even fat or anything..

Reply 95

LipstickKisses

Original post by Chi019

Well, memory is an aspect of intelligence. Also, ability to solve problems, recognise patterns, verbal abilities etc. In the US things like the SAT are a kind of intelligence or ability test.

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/media/releases/2004/pr040329.cfm

I would disagree that memory is an aspect of intelligence. And even so, those papers do not measure it effectively. Like I said before, there are many types of intelligence which are not catered for in exams, which are just as valuable.

Reply 96

milkytea

Sociological factors rather than racial ones.

Reply 97

SatanIsAwesome

Original post by Casshern1456

And why can't white/black/asian other races of parents do the same? you think only Chinese parents can be Tiger mums and dad, if the parents want the same from the children they'll do the same.

Western parents take a more liberal view, they want their children to have fun and succeed of their own accord, they don't think they knows what's best and they usually leave it to the schools and peers of the children, westerners also think that happiness isn't automatically related to success.
Asian parents generally force their children to work harder, they think that they know what's best for their kids and that their kids will only ever be happy if they succeed.

That's why Asians are more pushy, they have a different view point towards the raising of children.

Reply 98

Chi019

Original post by whyumadtho

Again, the environment and fitness of the individual is responsible for this.

No, you're overlooking average physical differences that have arisen due to adaptation to diverse environments.

Reply 99

Spungo

And how meaningful is IQ again?
I remember seeing an IQ test paper which involved a question which required knowledge of relatively famous classical composers, does that mean intelligence partly relies upon knowing how to spell Tchaikovsky?
There's also the fact that IQ tests generally have a lot of questions of a very similar format to readily available brainteasers on TV and in newspapers, there's certainly an element of prior knowledge and exposure than genuine "intelligence" in testing for peoples IQ's.

I'm sure most people would agree that intelligence is defined more as an ability to learn things, understand cause and effect relations, find patterns, etc, than a measure of how much general knowledge you've picked up over many years, so why on earth are IQ tests regarded so highly?