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FP2 Polar Integration

Okay.. so I'm trying to work out the area inside the curve r=a(1+.5sinθ)r=a(1+.5sin\theta ). However, if you sketch the curve, you'll realise it lies on all 4 sides of the axes. So I worked out the area between theta = 0 and pi/2, then multiplied that by 2. Then I worked out the area between -pi/2 and 0 and multiplied that by 2 and added the two answers, achieving A = 3πa22\frac{3\pi a^2}{2} which is incorrect. The worked solution just integrates it once between 0 and 2pi. I have two questions, why were they allowed to do this? It goes below the axis so surely some of the area was negated? Secondly, why did my method not work?

Question and worked solution attached in one image.
Reply 1
The integral runs between those values because it's where theta is defined. Remember you're integrating w.r.t theta, and the equation is defined for 0θ2π 0 \leq \theta \leq 2\pi . I think with your method you mistakenly assumed that the graph is symmetric about the axes, although if this is wrong I'm sure someone else will point it out. Does this make anything any clearer?
Reply 2
Not sure if this is a valid answer but is it because r is always going to be positive (given a>0) that they can do it like that?
Reply 3
Original post by Scott3142
The integral runs between those values because it's where theta is defined. Remember you're integrating w.r.t theta, and the equation is defined for 0θ2π 0 \leq \theta \leq 2\pi . I think with your method you mistakenly assumed that the graph is symmetric about the axes, although if this is wrong I'm sure someone else will point it out. Does this make anything any clearer?


I didn't think it was symmetrical about the initial line, more that the area in the 1st quadrant = 2nd quadrant, and similarly for 3rd and 4th. I see what you mean about the range of theta, which helps a lot... but I've seen for example θ=3π2\theta = \frac{3\pi}{2} being written as θ=π2\theta = \frac{-\pi}{2} which would suggest otherwise =\ .
Reply 4
I didn't mean the initial line, I meant equal areas between 0 and pi/2 and pi/2 and pi which I don't think is the case. I think what you've just said there is more a matter of convention. An angle clockwise through 3pi/2 is exactly the same as an angle anti-clockwise through pi/2 (i.e. -pi/2). Convention I think is that theta should lie between -pi and pi, although I could be wrong...
Reply 5
Original post by Scott3142
I didn't mean the initial line, I meant equal areas between 0 and pi/2 and pi/2 and pi which I don't think is the case. I think what you've just said there is more a matter of convention. An angle clockwise through 3pi/2 is exactly the same as an angle anti-clockwise through pi/2 (i.e. -pi/2). Convention I think is that theta should lie between -pi and pi, although I could be wrong...


Hmm okay thanks :smile: . One more question, so I don't need to open yet another topic for polar coords...

If you check the attached image (to this post) you'll see a polar equation, and I'm asked to find the perpendicular tangents to the initial line. So I drew my sine curve between 0 and 2 pi for their 2theta value, and from that drew my polar curve. The polar curve was essentially 2 petals in the 1st and 3rd quadrants, and they're both positive r values. However, the answer, for some reason states that I should only use the first limit ( check the range) can someone please tell me their reasoning o.o?
Original post by Scott3142
I think with your method you mistakenly assumed that the graph is symmetric about the axes, although if this is wrong I'm sure someone else will point it out.

I think you'll find it is. Note that the curve with polar equation r=f(θ)r=f(\theta) is symmetrical about the line θ=ϕ\theta=\phi if f(2ϕθ)f(θ);θRf(2\phi - \theta) \equiv f(\theta) ; \forall \theta \in \mathbb{R}. Taking ϕ=π2\phi = \dfrac{\pi}{2} and ϕ=0\phi=0 confirms that this symmetry holds.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 7
Original post by Farhan.Hanif93
I think you'll find it is. Note that the curve with polar equation r=f(θ)r=f(\theta) is symmetrical about the line θ=ϕ\theta=\phi if f(2ϕθ)f(θ);θRf(2\phi - \theta) \equiv f(\theta) ; \forall \theta \in \mathbb{R}. Taking ϕ=π2\phi = \dfrac{\pi}{2} and ϕ=0\phi=0 confirms that this symmetry holds.


Would you be able to explain why they have just integrated between 0 and 2pi and why this has given the correct answer?

Thanks
Original post by Ben121
Would you be able to explain why they have just integrated between 0 and 2pi and why this has given the correct answer?

Thanks

I think it's because r>0 (please note, I'm no expert on polar coordinates). My reasoning is simple, think about the integration of cartesian functions f(x), the only time when the areas may cancel is if f(x)<0. This would be the case here if r<0 but since r>0 for all theta, this problem never arises and thus we can integrate between any limits we like.
Reply 9
Original post by Farhan.Hanif93
I think it's because r>0 (please note, I'm no expert on polar coordinates). My reasoning is simple, think about the integration of cartesian functions f(x), the only time when the areas may cancel is if f(x)<0. This would be the case here if r<0 but since r>0 for all theta, this problem never arises and thus we can integrate between any limits we like.


But, even though we don't take into account anything for r<0, doesn't the integration take it into account? I mean, it seems as if it worked out that time, but I have a feeling it wouldn't always if I just integrated between 0 and 2 pi.

Oh, if anyone can answer my question above (with the other attachment) I'd be grateful.
Reply 10
Original post by Farhan.Hanif93
I think it's because r>0 (please note, I'm no expert on polar coordinates). My reasoning is simple, think about the integration of cartesian functions f(x), the only time when the areas may cancel is if f(x)<0. This would be the case here if r<0 but since r>0 for all theta, this problem never arises and thus we can integrate between any limits we like.


Ah great that's what I thought it might have been!
Reply 11
Eughh yet another question.. this isn't going well. I understand that r = a represents a circle of radius a. But I've now come across the equation r = 4cos(theta), which also apparently describes a circle, can someone explain that to me and tell me the general form of a circle?
Original post by ViralRiver
But, even though we don't take into account anything for r<0, doesn't the integration take it into account? I mean, it seems as if it worked out that time, but I have a feeling it wouldn't always if I just integrated between 0 and 2 pi.

Oh, if anyone can answer my question above (with the other attachment) I'd be grateful.

That integral will give you the magnitude of that bounded area because r>0 across the interval you're integrating over. If the example wasn't as simple as this one and there were regions where r<0 then you just have to find the intervals of theta over which r<0 and deal with them accordingly.

As for your other question, I think we have the problem of (r,θ)=(a32,π6)(r,\theta)=\left( -a\sqrt{\dfrac{\sqrt{3}}{2}}, \dfrac{\pi}{6}\right) implying that r<0, which is problematic. Not completely sure though because looking at the graph, the other point works fine. Best wait until tomorrow so someone more knowledgable can comment.
Reply 13
Original post by Farhan.Hanif93
That integral will give you the magnitude of that bounded area because r>0 across the interval you're integrating over. If the example wasn't as simple as this one and there were regions where r<0 then you just have to find the intervals of theta over which r<0 and deal with them accordingly.

As for your other question, I think we have the problem of (r,θ)=(a32,π6)(r,\theta)=\left( -a\sqrt{\dfrac{\sqrt{3}}{2}}, \dfrac{\pi}{6}\right) implying that r<0, which is problematic. Not completely sure though because looking at the graph, the other point works fine. Best wait until tomorrow so someone more knowledgable can comment.


Hmm, I checked it back again, and as we have r = sqrt(something), and that something is negative if theta = -pi/6, could that be the problem? Though that would suggest a complex r, not negative =\ .
Original post by ViralRiver
Eughh yet another question.. this isn't going well. I understand that r = a represents a circle of radius a. But I've now come across the equation r = 4cos(theta), which also apparently describes a circle, can someone explain that to me and tell me the general form of a circle?

A circle with a centre of (r,θ)=(r0,θ0)(r,\theta) = (r_0, \theta_0) and radius a is given by:

r22rr0cos(θθ0)+r02=a2r^2-2rr_0\cos (\theta - \theta_0)+r_0^2=a^2.

r=ar=a is a circle with a centre at the pole of radius a and r=4cosθr=4\cos \theta is a circle with centre (2,0)(2,0) and radius 2 i.e. r0=2,θ0=0,a=2r_0=2, \theta_0=0, a=2. Sub them in and rearrange.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 15
Original post by Farhan.Hanif93
A circle with a centre of (r,θ)=(r0,θ0)(r,\theta) = (r_0, \theta_0) and radius a is given by:

r22rr0cos(θθ0)+r02=a2r^2-2rr_0\cos (\theta - \theta_0)+r_0^2=a^2.

r=ar=a is a circle with a centre at the pole of radius a and r=4cosθr=4\cos \theta is a circle with centre (2,0)(2,0) and radius 2 i.e. r0=2,θ0=0,a=2r_0=2, \theta_0=0, a=2. Sub them in and rearrange.


Ahhh okay that makes sense. Is there any way of seeing from an equation whether it's a circle? Otherwise I'd have to draw it out and assume it has a constant radius, which defeats the point of me using that equation :P .

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