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Applying to Uni? Let Universities come to you. Click here to get your perfect place 20-10-2014
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    (Original post by austrian guy)


    Source: http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/report.aspx?aid=65 (excellent article, really worth reading)
    Umm i dont really agree with any of what youre saying, firstly you have to look at the broader picture and not only the gains of a couple of companies. I mean your quote from this article says that companies earned around $8 bn, that sounds like a lot but it really isnt (as a percentage of total US GDP).. Yes several energy companies did gain a lot form the war , but overall the warcost more than any gains!


    This is very true. As for the Iraq war, which let the unemployment rate decrease and the company invest rate increase.
    Are you seriously suggesting that companies tend to invest more during a war?? You must be out of your mind!! If you look at and consumer / producer confidence charts you will notice that during September 11, Iraq War ad other War crisis, they were at an all time low!

    :eek:

    I agree that war can be beneficial in the short run - but only for a handful of companies, but as a wholemost of the effects on an economy are negative. You just have to apply basic economic theory to realize this. The amount of financial and material assets a country uses in a war poses an oppertunity cost! The money could be spent else where.

    We are talking about the overall economic picture - you say that a couple of firms benefit, but the whole economy is nt determined by these companies.

    Another point about why a war is not beneficial to an economy:
    During the Iraq war Oil prices have soared - because fuel is a basic commodity that every household needs, rising oil prices leads to a contraction in a households disposable income, meaning that consumption goes down and so does investment since its more costly for firms to produce goods and services (since fixed costs go up). Therfore Aggregate demand falls meaning Unemployment!!

    How could you say a war leads to an increase in employment? stop looking at all these sources and look at basic economic theory!
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    How could you say a war leads to an increase in employment? stop looking at all these sources and look at basic economic theory!
    I was talking about the evident decrease of unemployment because many unemployed joined the army. I didn't say that new jobs were created, solely that there were less registeres unemployed.

    We are talking about the overall economic picture - you say that a couple of firms benefit, but the whole economy is nt determined by these companies.
    All of the extra money these firms earn with expansion flows back to the US. So if many companies earn more than they would have, then the american economy does benefit from it.

    Umm i dont really agree with any of what youre saying, firstly you have to look at the broader picture and not only the gains of a couple of companies. I mean your quote from this article says that companies earned around $8 bn, that sounds like a lot but it really isnt (as a percentage of total US GDP)..
    Even in the broader picture $8 bn is far more than the $0 they would have earned in that region if there would still be a regime in Iraq. Secondly the specific post you are mentioning was more meant to be a proof of the relations between the Bush administration and these firms.

    P.S.: I also have some arguments for your position, but one should only have one point of view and I wanted to get a discussion started. As I already said, it really varies. War can be beneficial, but it must not.
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    The extra money spent on the war is money that will not be spent elsewhere. The war can be funded in a combination of three ways:
    *Increasing taxes
    *Decrease spending in other areas
    *Increasing the debt

    Increasing taxes reduces consumer spending, which does not help the economy at all. Suppose we decrease government spending on social programs. Firstly we've lost the benefits those social programs provide. The recipients of those programs will now have less money to spend on other items, so the economy will decline as a whole.

    Looking at the Iraq war i agree that there are some benefits. The economy of the United States could improve in the long run due to the war for a couple of reasons:

    *An increased supply of oil
    if a regime with better American relations were set up in Iraq, the supply of oil to the United States would increase. This will drive down the price of oil, as well as driving down the costs of companies that use oil as a factor of production which will certainly help economic growth. However this is ONLY after the war has ended and peace and security is in place - however this looks to be far far far away in the case of Iraq

    *Stability and Economic Growth in the Middle East
    If peace can somehow be established in the Middle East, the U.S. government might not have to spend as much money on the military as they do now. If the economies of the countries in the middle east become more stable and experience growth, this will give them more opportunities to trade with the United States, improving both the economies of those countries and the U.S.

    Personally I do not see these factors outweighing the short term costs of the war in Iraq, but you can make a case for them.

    --------------

    *Lets not forget that the military is the largest single government bureaucracy. It produces nothing. It only consumes resources which it takes from taxpayers. all these resources are directed toward the building and maintenance of weapons. It does not create wealth. It diverts it from more productive uses.
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    Normally war is financed with money that doesn't have to come from new sources (the Iraq war is a bad example here, because the US strategy didn't work so they had to get more monex).

    See, we did find a compromise. War can be beneficial, but it must not I think we need a new topic to debate about, because in this topic it really depends too much on all of the circumstances.

    The most american wars are beneficial, because they are very far away from the US. The situation would be totally different if somebody would attack the US at home.

    However this is ONLY after the war has ended and peace and security is in place - however this looks to be far far far away in the case of Iraq
    Yes. And until that peace is secured it is american companies and american contractors making money securing other companies or oil depots. Its a vicious circle, no matter how long this goes on for, in the long run the US will profit.

    --------------

    Lets not forget that the military is the largest single government bureaucracy. It produces nothing. It only consumes resources which it takes from taxpayers. all these resources are directed toward the building and maintenance of weapons. It does not create wealth. It diverts it from more productive uses.
    It produces jobs. It decreases unemployment and it makes major contracts with firms, who by producing weapons and know-how, help the economy.
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    (Original post by austrian guy)
    Even in the broader picture $8 bn is far more than the $0 they would have earned in that region if there would still be a regime in Iraq. Secondly the specific post you are mentioning was more meant to be a proof of the relations between the Bush administration and these firms.
    You say that 8bn is more than nothing, well the total cost of the iraq war was $231,617,206,152 (source: http://nationalpriorities.org/index....per&Itemid=182)!!!! so how can you deny that the wwar was more costly than the gains!

    Yes all the costs of the war add to US gdp, however this money could have been used in other more productive parts of the economy which would have resulted in increased standards of living within the economy, ie spending on educatio, health care, etc.

    And bytheway just look at the USs Budget deficit!
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    (Original post by __WiZaRD__)
    You say that 8bn is more than nothing, well the total cost of the iraq war was $231,617,206,152 (source: http://nationalpriorities.org/index....per&Itemid=182)!!!! so how can you deny that the wwar was more costly than the gains!

    Yes all the costs of the war add to US gdp, however this money could have been used in other more productive parts of the economy which would have resulted in increased standards of living within the economy, ie spending on educatio, health care, etc.

    And bytheway just look at the USs Budget deficit!
    Yes, but the US would have spent money on weapons etc anyway (not as much). And as I said, the Iraq war was the greatest failure, this is not a good example. But normally the cost of going to war isn't that high and you can gain more money in the long run. Even through the Iraq war the US will benefit in the long run.

    As soon as there is peace in Iraq and the Iraqi population starts to be able to afford buying things etc. the great profiteur will be the US, they have established a great network (in all fields) and the money will start coming back long after the war has been forgotten. maybe it will take over 25 years, but at some stage these $231,617,206,152 will have come back through the investments that were enabled through the war.
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    (Original post by austrian guy)
    Yes, but the US would have spent money on weapons etc anyway (not as much). And as I said, the Iraq war was the greatest failure, this is not a good example. But normally the cost of going to war isn't that high and you can gain more money in the long run. Even through the Iraq war the US will benefit in the long run.

    As soon as there is peace in Iraq and the Iraqi population starts to be able to afford buying things etc. the great profiteur will be the US, they have established a great network (in all fields) and the money will start coming back long after the war has been forgotten. maybe it will take over 25 years, but at some stage these $231,617,206,152 will have come back through the investments that were enabled through the war.
    You know thats total and utter bullsh*t!!!! give me an example of a "network" of which you speak of, which will be profitable to the US?? :cool:
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    (Original post by __WiZaRD__)
    You know thats total and utter bullsh*t!!!! give me an example of a "network" of which you speak of, which will be profitable to the US?? :cool:
    the most firms that are profiting from the reconstruction of Iraq are american. Therefore these firms will start to make profits throughout the next years which will all flow back to the states.

    Contractor Value Value FY02 Agency
    Abt Associates Inc.
    Iraq $43,818,278 USAID
    Advanced Systems Development, Inc.
    Iraq $259,958.56 DoD
    AECOM
    Iraq $21,610,501 DoD
    Alexander, Deborah Lynn
    Afghanistan $168,625 USAID
    AllWorld Language Consultants
    Iraq $4,051,349 DoD
    American International Contractors, Inc.
    Iraq $1,500,000,000 DoD
    American President Lines Ltd.
    Iraq $5,000,000 USAID
    Anteon International Corporation
    Afghanistan $6,800,000 DoD
    AOS, Inc.
    Iraq $866,988 DoD
    Artel
    Iraq
    Atlas Case, Inc.
    Iraq $17,243 DoD
    Bald Industries
    Iraq $35,734 DoD
    Baldino, George F.
    Afghanistan $263,000 USAID
    Bea Mauer, Inc.
    Iraq $9,920 DoD
    BearingPoint Inc.
    Afghanistan $64,100,00 USAID
    BearingPoint Inc.
    Iraq $240,162,668 USAID
    Bechtel Group Inc.
    Iraq $2,829,833,859 USAID
    Blackwater Security Consulting L.L.C.
    Iraq $21,331,693 DoD
    CACI International Inc.
    Iraq $66,221,143.19 Interior
    Camp Dresser & McKee Inc.
    Afghanistan $1,700,000 USAID
    Capital Shredder Corporation
    Iraq $11,803 DoD
    Cartridge Discounters
    Iraq $40,492 DoD
    CDW Government, Inc.
    Iraq $35,174 DoD
    Cellhire USA
    Iraq $1,465,983 DoD
    CH2M Hill
    Iraq $1,528,500,000 DoD
    Chemonics International Inc.
    Afghanistan $167,759,000 USAID
    Chugach McKinley, Inc.
    Iraq $3,068,407 DoD
    Comfort Inn
    Iraq $47,324 DoD
    Complement, Inc., The
    Iraq $3,358 DoD
    Contrack International Inc.
    Iraq $2,325,000,000 DoD
    Contrack International Inc.
    Afghanistan $500,000,000 DoD
    Creative Associates International Inc.
    Afghanistan $60,000,000 USAID
    Creative Associates International Inc.
    Iraq $273,539,368 USAID
    Cybex International
    Afghanistan $4,838 DoD
    Dataline Inc.
    Iraq $1,028,851.89 DoD
    Dell Marketing L.P.
    Iraq $513,678.88 DoD
    Detection Monitoring Technologies
    Iraq $5,584,482 DoD
    Development Alternatives Inc.
    Iraq $39,523,857 USAID
    Development Alternatives Inc.
    Afghanistan $9,594,000 USAID
    DHS Logistics Company
    Afghanistan $378,000 $288,000 DoD
    DHS Logistics Company
    Iraq $223,497 DoD
    Diplomat Freight Services Inc.
    Afghanistan $2,604,276 $2,604,000 State
    DynCorp (Computer Sciences Corp.)
    Afghanistan $43,559,421 $130,000 State
    DynCorp (Computer Sciences Corp.)
    Iraq $50,000,000 State
    Earth Tech, Inc.
    Iraq $65,449,155 DoD
    EGL Eagle Global Logistics
    Iraq $111,000 USAID
    EHI Company
    Iraq $3,956 DoD
    Electric Generator Store, The
    Iraq $6,974 DoD
    Environmental Chemical Corporation
    Iraq $1,475,000,000 DoD
    EOD Technology Inc.
    Iraq $71,900,000 DoD
    Expedited World Cargo Inc.
    Iraq $55,004 USAID
    Explosive Ordnance Technologies Inc.
    Iraq $1,475,000,000 DoD
    Export Depot
    Iraq $21,182 DoD
    Federal Data Corporation
    Afghanistan $1,991,770 DoD
    Fluor Corp.
    Iraq $3,754,964,295 DoD
    Force 3
    Iraq $274,651.95 DoD
    Foster Wheeler Co.
    Iraq $8,416,985 DoD
    General Electric Company
    Iraq Value Unknown DoD
    General Electric Company
    Afghanistan $8,525,498 DoD
    Giesecke & Devrient America
    Iraq $72,700 DoD
    Global Container Lines Ltd.
    Iraq $1,850,000 USAID
    Global Professional Solutions
    Iraq $590,232 DoD
    Global Services
    Iraq $910,468 DoD
    GPS Store, Inc., The
    Iraq $19,761 DoD
    GTSI Corp
    Afghanistan $70,220 DoD
    Hardware Associates
    Iraq $4,304 DoD
    Harris Corporation
    Iraq $165,000,000 DoD
    Inglett and Stubbs LLC
    Iraq $1,826,974 DoD
    Inglett and Stubbs LLC
    Afghanistan $6,348,271 DoD
    Intelligent Enterprise Solutions
    Iraq $19,835 DoD
    International American Products Inc.
    Iraq $628,421,252 DoD
    International American Products Inc.
    Afghanistan $20,080,636 $683,000 DoD
    International Global Systems, Inc.
    Iraq $157,383.40 DoD
    International Resources Group
    Afghanistan $1,230,000 USAID
    International Resources Group
    Iraq $38,000,000 USAID
    J & B Truck Repair Service
    Afghanistan $1,353,477 DoD
    John S. Connor Inc.
    Iraq $34,153 USAID
    JSI Inc.
    Iraq $3,376 DoD
    Kellogg, Brown & Root (Halliburton)
    Iraq $10,832,000,000 DoD
    Kellogg, Brown & Root (Halliburton)
    Afghanistan $599,000,000 $114,999,000 DoD
    Kollsman Inc
    Iraq
    Kroll Inc.
    Iraq Value Unknown USAID
    Kropp Holdings
    Iraq $11,880,000 DoD
    Lab Safety Supply
    Iraq $53,379 DoD
    Laguna Construction Company, Inc.
    Iraq $19,536,683 DoD
    LandSea Systems, Inc.
    Iraq $47,750 DoD
    Landstar Express America Inc.
    Iraq $24,396 USAID
    Liberty Shipping Group Ltd.
    Iraq $7,300,000 USAID
    Logenix International L.L.C.
    Iraq $29,000 USAID
    Louis Berger Group
    Afghanistan $10,228,894 - $300,000,000 $5,229,000 USAID
    Louis Berger Group
    Iraq $27,671,364 DoD
    Lucent Technologies World Services, Inc.
    Iraq $75,000,000 DoD
    Management Systems International
    Afghanistan $14,700,000 USAID
    Management Systems International
    Iraq $15,116,328 USAID
    McNeil Technologies, Inc.
    Iraq $716,651 DoD
    Mediterranean Shipping Company
    Iraq $13,000 USAID
    MEI Research Corporation
    Iraq
    Michael Baker Jr., Inc.
    Afghanistan $1,471,238 DoD
    Michael Baker Jr., Inc.
    Iraq $4,528,328 DoD
    Midwest Research Institute
    Iraq $1,765,000 DoD
    Military Professional Resources Inc.
    Iraq $2,608,794.74 DoD
    Miscellaneous Foreign Contract
    Iraq $3,026,630 DoD
    Miscellaneous Foreign Contract
    Afghanistan $10,463,180 DoD
    Motorola Inc.
    Iraq $15,591,732 DoD
    MZM Inc.
    Iraq $1,213,632 DoD
    NANA Pacific
    Iraq $70,000,000 DoD
    Native American Industrial Distributors Inc.
    Iraq $123,572 DoD
    Night Vision Equipment Company
    Iraq $153,118 DoD
    Nuttall, James S.
    Afghanistan $187,000 USAID
    Ocean Bulkships Inc.
    Iraq $5,000,000 USAID
    Odebrect-Austin
    Iraq $1,500,000,000 DoD
    Outfitter Satellite, Inc.
    Iraq $33,203 DoD
    PAE Government Services Inc.
    Afghanistan $7,007,158 $5,714,000 State
    Paro, Amy K.
    Afghanistan $94,457 $94,000 USAID
    Parsons Corp.
    Iraq $5,286,136,252 DoD
    Parsons Energy and Chemicals Group
    Iraq $43,361,340 DoD
    Perini Corporation
    Iraq $2,525,000,000 DoD
    Perini Corporation
    Afghanistan $14,000,000 - $25,000,000 DoD
    Raytheon Aerospace LLC
    Afghanistan $91,096,464 $2,044,000 DoD
    Raytheon Technical Services
    Iraq $12,412,573 DoD
    Reabold, Miguel (Michael)
    Afghanistan $136,603 USAID
    Readiness Management Support LC (Johnson Controls Inc.)
    Afghanistan $40,792,343 $828,000 DoD
    Readiness Management Support LC (Johnson Controls Inc.)
    Iraq $173,965,104 USAID
    Red River Computer Company
    Iraq $972,592.90 DoD
    Redcom Laboratories
    Afghanistan $24,375 DoD
    Research Triangle Institute
    Iraq $466,070,508 USAID
    Ronco Consulting Corporation
    Iraq $12,008,289.60 DoD
    Ronco Consulting Corporation
    Afghanistan $12,423,633 $6,771,000 USAID / State / DoD
    S&C Electric Company
    Afghanistan $34,800 DoD
    S&K Technologies Inc.
    Iraq $4,950,384.80 DoD
    Sampler, Donald L.
    Afghanistan $81,000 USAID
    Science Applications International Corp.
    Iraq $159,304,219 DoD
    Sealift Inc.
    Iraq $4,000,000 USAID
    Segovia Inc.
    Iraq $320,636 DoD
    SETA Corporation
    Iraq $3,165,765 DoD
    Shaw Group/Shaw E & I
    Iraq $3,050,749,910 DoD
    Signature Science
    Iraq $4,704,464 DoD
    Simmonds Precision Products
    Iraq $4,412,488 DoD
    SkyLink Air and Logistic Support (USA) Inc.
    Iraq $27,344,600 USAID
    Smith Office Machines Corporation
    Iraq $2,961 DoD
    Social Impact Inc.
    Afghanistan $1,875,000 USAID
    Sodexho Inc.
    Afghanistan $324,120 $324,000 State
    SPARCO
    Iraq $9,215 DoD
    Stanley Baker Hill L.L.C.
    Iraq $1,200,000,000 DoD
    Stanley Consultants
    Iraq $7,709,767 DoD
    Staples National Advantage
    Iraq $4,194 DoD
    Stevedoring Services of America
    Iraq $14,318,895 USAID
    Stratex Freedom Services
    Afghanistan $1,978,175 DoD
    Structural Engineers
    Iraq $1,113,000 DoD
    TECO Ocean Shipping Co.
    Iraq $7,200,000 USAID
    Tekontrol, Inc.
    Afghanistan $85,146 DoD
    Tetra Tech Inc.
    Iraq $1,541,947,671 DoD
    Titan Corporation
    Iraq $402,000,000 DoD
    Total Business
    Iraq $4,696 DoD
    Transfair North America International
    Iraq $19,351 USAID
    Triumph Technologies
    Iraq $228,924 DoD
    Tryco Inc.
    Afghanistan $400,000 DoD
    Unisys Corporation
    Iraq $320,000 DoD
    United Defense Industries, L.P.
    Iraq $4,500,000 DoD
    University of Nebraska at Omaha
    Afghanistan $7,072,468 USAID
    USA Environmental Inc.
    Iraq $1,541,947,671 DoD
    Vinnell Corporation (Northrop Grumman)
    Iraq $48,074,442 DoD
    Ward Transformer Sales & Services
    Iraq $115,000 DoD
    Washington Group International
    Iraq $3,133,078,193 DoD
    Washington Group International
    Afghanistan $500,000 - $500,000,000 DoD
    WECSYS
    Iraq $3,040 DoD
    Weston Solutions, Inc.
    Iraq $16,279,724 DoD
    World Fuel Services Corp.
    Afghanistan $19,762,792 DoD
    Young, Brian
    Afghanistan $106,150 $39,000 State
    Zapata Engineering
    Iraq $1,478,838,958
    http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/bio.aspx?act=pro

    This is my so called "network"
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    i agree with wizard. i'm bored of seeing all these quotes and figures that have been taken off websites
    anyone think of a new thing to debate about?
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    Hello everyone!
    Can I join this society?
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    yea, i think we need a good topic to debate about - something with more real economics invlved? How about a Keynesians VS Classical Economists Debate!?
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    First of all, austrian guy and Lykabelle added to the members list. Welcome to the society :wavey:

    Wizard 2 points, Austrian guy 4 points.

    Right new topic. Good thinking wizard but wont the topic be too vast? It will take months to end! If all of you want it no problem, we will go ahead with it. So what are your opinions?

    Oh another update, from now on 3 eco points for giving idea for a topic that is selected.

    --------------

    (Original post by AlphaX)
    Does anyone have a copy of last years June (2005) AQA Economics Unit 1 and Unit 2 Exam papers or know where I can get them?
    http://www.aqa.org.uk/qual/pdf/AQA-5...-WRE-Jun05.pdf

    This is the examiners report. The markscheme is not in their website yet.
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    The topic is too broad in my opinion. I would be for a topic related to the pros and cons for the european economy due a possible accession of Turkey to the European Union.
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    I found a link to the book (ebook should I say) "The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money" by Keynes. I dont know whether it is the full version, but it is interesting enough.

    http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au...44g/index.html
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    I want to be a member!
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    shauniemac added.
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    topic 1: that I suggest, see above: Turkey
    topic 2: Facing the giant China, which measures should the EU take
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    Wow @ me not getting points when NONE of my opinions were copy and pasted.
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    whos opinions were copied and pasted?
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    i think a really intresting debate would be one on protectionism and how it effects developing/developed countries. Whether the CAP is justified..

    Anyone?

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