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Will Britain ever be Great again?

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I also have no doubt that if Africa had become more powerful than Europe in the sixteenth century, then Africans would have had no reservations about enslaving Europeans.

But black Africans didn't. White Europeans DID and that's all that matters.

Moss Side Time prepares for the old "Africans sold their own" argument or the "Arabs sold slaves too" argument

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 81

Moss_Side_Time

Original post by MK9

After the Roman Period, we did bring great authors such as Jane Austen, Emily Bronte, Arthur Conan Doyle.
Not to mention people like William Shakespeare, Christopher Marlowe, Lewis Caroll, Charles Dickens.

What was great about them ? They are only great because white people said they were great and that’s it. White people repeat this so many times through schools, books, films, TV and orally people start to believe it. There have been hundreds of thousands of authors worldwide, deciding who is the best is Author / Poet is a subjective matter anyway, but of course, to you, it’s just a coincidence, that all the authors on your list are white, to you there is nothing biased in that at all.....Erm Yeah OK.

Original post by MK9

We actually did hold out against Nazi Germany, ever heard of the Battle of Britain ?

That’s what I said

Original post by MK9

Oh and Britain was the first country to get into a Industrial Revolution, so you know what, Britain has been great.

Saying that Britain is great is like saying Robbers and Thieves are great.

Original post by MK9

By the way, I'm not even going to argue with you any further, as I find it only angers me, and doesn't even seem to have an effect on you, as you merely respond with the same thing you've said before.

Well if one solitary contrary opinion upsets your mind state so much then your beliefs are built on rocky foundations.

Reply 82

Otkem

Original post by Moss_Side_Time

But black Africans didn't. White Europeans DID and that's all that matters.

Moss Side Time prepares for the old "Africans sold their own" argument or the "Arabs sold slaves too" argument

Because it's true. And no, the fact that they didn't whereas Europeans did ISN'T all that matters. It was simply a case that they couldn't. Grass sticks could never put up a fight against guns.

Reply 83

kingsholmmad

Original post by Moss_Side_Time

Moss Side Time prepares for the old "Africans sold their own" argument or the "Arabs sold slaves too" argument

And is that argument invalid simply because you don't like it? The Arabs did sell slaves. The Africans did sell slaves. They're still at it now. But you say you're preparing for that argument so let's hear the fruits of your preparation.

Original post by Moss_Side_Time

Fine. Who do you consider to be the great authors and by what measure do you make them out to be so much greater than those listed?

Saying that Britain is great is like saying Robbers and Thieves are great.

Well, in that case, name me one country that has achieved more than the British Empire did at a lower cost. The Mongols, the Byzantines, the Romans all had empires that were much more violent. The British Empire achieved a huge amount and a lot of that was through trading which didn't kill millions and leave countries destroyed.

Reply 84

Square

the british empire was pretty much one of the most peaceful empires in human history, unlike others, we didnt pillage, rape and burn out others, we traded with them and brought them law and order, infrastructure, put down slavery etc - all it gets is a bunch of hate from ungrateful mongs home and abroad.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 85

Snagprophet

I wonder if the rise of protestantism in Britain paved the way for more liberal thinking, such as getting divorces if you fall out of love etc, like with Henry VIII. Wasn't it a major blow against state religion?

Reply 86

Moss_Side_Time

Original post by kingsholmmad

It depends on what you mean by ‘achieve’. Like all racist ideas, you take the current power imbalance and see it as the natural order of things – when it is anything but. White northerners from Europe have been the most advanced part of mankind only twice, now and back in Greek and Roman times. Otherwise white northerners have been middling to backwards. White brits thrashed their way to the top through the barrel of a gun.

Original post by kingsholmmad

It seems to me that white people possess a different moral compass than black people. Thus you will try to debunk my argument through diversionary tactics but everyone has to have a hobby I suppose. So saying “The Arabs sold slaves” is like your girlfriend catching you with another woman and then you saying “I know what I did was wrong, but my friend Joe has been cheating on his girlfriend WAY LONGER than me. And he beats her too. Please keep that in mind”

And if she continues to be angry at you, you say : “Why are you so angry at me but not at my friend ? I mean, he is way worse than me! You are being unfair.” I know NO ONE who has been affected by the Arab slave trade nor do I live in a country that has been shaped and continues to be shaped by that trade. That is quite untrue about the Atlantic slave trade.

As for old “Africans Sold Slaves” you know the people who say this, say it like white Europeans went to Africa for the weather and then they were suddenly tricked into exporting millions of slaves over to the Americas.

First, simply as an argument of fact it fails:

Africans were not selling their own, they were selling their enemies, just as the Greeks and Romans once did. They were no more selling their own than, say, Europeans were killing their own during the Holocaust.

And you overlook a few other things:

Most African countries did not sell slaves and some even fought against it. But because Europeans back then could control the supply of guns there was little Africans could do to stop it. The Transatlantic slave trade was on a much greater scale than anything the Africans or anyone else ever did in the history of slavery. Countries were destroyed and millions died. Over 12 million were sold in less than 400 years, something so huge that it changed the genetic map of the world. The Transatlantic slave trade was racist. The African slave trade, for all of its other ills, was not that. Neither was the Greek and Roman slave trade. So slavery in places like Haiti, Barbados and America was much more cruel.

As a moral argument it fails too :

You excuse an evil of one’s own past by finding the same sort of evil done by others. Whites sold slaves, but Africans did too! Which, morally speaking, is like me raping and killing your mom or sister then saying "Hey !! What's the problem ? Many men have killed women. What about Peter Sutcliffe ?"

Even more ironic when people talk the good that white people have done like inventions whites will act like whites and only whites have done this

HISTORY DOES NOT MATTTER

But when it comes to the bad that whites have done, you'll say that “African sold their own” "Arabs sold their own" "We stopped slavery"

HISTORY MATTERS THEN

Sometimes it makes me wonder if a database of ready-to-use-canned-arguments-to-pull –when-discussing-race-with-black-people exists somewhere for white people.

Original post by kingsholmmad

Fine. Who do you consider to be the great authors and by what measure do you make them out to be so much greater than those listed?

But that’s the thing. There is no measure to how great an author is. It’s like arguing with someone about what is the best song. It's entirely subjective.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 87

MonkeyMan2009

Original post by synopticity.

Find me a country that has contributed to the same level as the UK in sport?

Football? Rugby? Tennis? Hockey? Golf? Rounders? Cricket? Darts?

They didn't come out of ****ing Nepal or Portugal!!

Find me a nation of our size that has contributed a similar level of modern music...

From that list of countries - Australia, S. Africa, Canada and NZ were due to the the British creating them - the rest barely did anything anyway.

Rounders? **** off! :biggrin:

Reply 88

kingsholmmad

Original post by Moss_Side_Time

No. It simply wouldn't have been possible to create an empire as big as the British Empire through military means with the resources we had. By the time we'd taken Delhi, we'd have lost Bombay and Calcutta, never mind Canada, Australia and half of the rest of the empire. We were a mercantile empire which meant that we achieved (achieve v. succeed in doing by effort, skill or courage) a lot more than most empires at a lower cost in human life.

It seems to me that white people possess a different moral compass than black people.

Quite possibly; that doesn't mean that either one of us is necessarily right.

Thus you will try to debunk my argument through diversionary tactics but everyone has to have a hobby I suppose. So saying “The Arabs sold slaves” is like your girlfriend catching you with another woman and then you saying “I know what I did was wrong, but my friend Joe has been cheating on his girlfriend WAY LONGER than me. And he beats her too. Please keep that in mind”

And if she continues to be angry at you, you say : “Why are you so angry at me but not at my friend ? I mean, he is way worse than me! You are being unfair.” I know NO ONE who has been affected by the Arab slave trade nor do I live in a country that has been shaped and continues to be shaped by that trade. That is quite untrue about the Atlantic slave trade.

My point was not in support of slavery, which I quite agree was and is even worse than adultery. My point was that we did not invent it (as suggested by another poster) but that we did abolish it. Or is it "diversionary" to explain the point I was making?

As for old “Africans Sold Slaves” you know the people who say this, say it like white Europeans went to Africa for the weather and then they were suddenly tricked into exporting millions of slaves over to the Americas.

First, simply as an argument of fact it fails:

Africans were not selling their own, they were selling their enemies, just as the Greeks and Romans once did. They were no more selling their own than, say, Europeans were killing their own during the Holocaust.

I know. I agree. The point is that Africans were selling slaves centuries before the British got involved. It doesn't matter "whose" they were, they were still slaves and it was still Africans selling them.

And you overlook a few other things:

Most African countries did not sell slaves and some even fought against it. But because Europeans back then could control the supply of guns there was little Africans could do to stop it.

Well, they could have stopped selling them. The way the British did.

The Transatlantic slave trade was on a much greater scale than anything the Africans or anyone else ever did in the history of slavery. Countries were destroyed and millions died. Over 12 million were sold in less than 400 years, something so huge that it changed the genetic map of the world. The Transatlantic slave trade was racist. The African slave trade, for all of its other ills, was not that. Neither was the Greek and Roman slave trade. So slavery in places like Haiti, Barbados and America was much more cruel.

You still seem to think that I somehow support the slave trade. I don't. It was evil. It is evil. It will always be evil. The point is that it won't be a British evil because we abolished it.

As a moral argument it fails too :

You excuse an evil of one’s own past by finding the same sort of evil done by others. Whites sold slaves, but Africans did too! Which, morally speaking, is like me raping and killing your mom or sister then saying "Hey !! What's the problem ? Many men have killed women. What about Peter Sutcliffe ?"

Even more ironic when people talk the good that white people have done like inventions whites will act like whites and only whites have done this

HISTORY DOES NOT MATTTER

But when it comes to the bad that whites have done, you'll say that “African sold their own” "Arabs sold their own" "We stopped slavery"

HISTORY MATTERS THEN

Sometimes it makes me wonder if a database of ready-to-use-canned-arguments-to-pull –when-discussing-race-with-black-people exists somewhere for white people.

No, but because history always matters, a database of historical events and facts exists which shows both the evil and the good that have been done by blacks, whites and everybody else. And it shows that, for all our evils, white Britons have achieved more than any black nationality you care to mention.

This would probably be a convenient point to suggest that the concept of nationality is abstract, arbitrary and pointless. In spite of the fact that the whole thread is specifically about nationality.

Alternatively, you could apply your own "diversionary tactic" by suggesting that history is biased towards whites. Quite possibly it is. To the victor, the spoils. If a black nation had had an empire as great as the British Empire, it would have written history and it would have chosen how history would reflect that fact. The point is no black nation has achieved anything remotely approaching what Britain has achieved. If blacks want history to favour them, they should get their collective fingers out and make it happen. That's exactly what the British did.

But that’s the thing. There is no measure to how great an author is. It’s like arguing with someone about what is the best song. It's entirely subjective.

Certainly. It's all a matter of opinion. And the majority opinion, regionally, nationally and globally, is that they were all great authors, by any measure you care to apply.

Reply 89

username547863

Is labour dont get to ruin this country again then yes im sure we will be a great economical powerhouse like before

Reply 90

adam_zed

"Standing alone against fascism"?

Is this historical ignorance or just over the top patriotic dribble?

Reply 91

Tin

What a load of tosh. Honestly, I know a lot of people from many backgrounds and I can tell you what you'd be great for -> 'arrogance'.

Who says stuff like this really?

The Iraqis invented Beer, the concept of Money, had the first Alphabet. The Chinese invented tons of stuff, the Iranians invented Human Rights, the Mayans had a great civilisation. You dont hear everyone else BANG-ON about how their reputation aught to be respected by the world.

Ultimately, your personality and character is whats judged .... and we live in a more transparent world so start brushing up on YOUR OWN character.

I dont think the Americans are like this to be honest.

Reply 92

callan

Not with a population that moans all the time

This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

Reply 93

Nick100

Original post by adam_zed

"Standing alone against fascism"?

Is this historical ignorance or just over the top patriotic dribble?

At one point we were pretty much alone; at the time of the Battle of Britain all of Europe was under the control of Fascists and their then-ally the USSR. Certainly we had the Empire and the US supporting us, but they were across the ocean and we were losing the battle of the Atlantic.

Reply 94

Nick100

Original post by Tin

WWho says stuff like this really?

The Iraqis invented Beer, the concept of Money, had the first Alphabet. The Chinese invented tons of stuff, the Iranians invented Human Rights, the Mayans had a great civilisation. You dont hear everyone else BANG-ON about how their reputation aught to be respected by the world.

Are you kidding? Have you ever been to China; they think that they own half of Asia and that the Taiwanese government is imaginary. The reason you don't hear the Chinese, or Japanese or Russians or Iranians banging on about the greatness of their country because you don't consume a lot of Chinese, Japanese, Russian or Iranian media.

Reply 95

paddyman4

Our problem is that we no longer have politicians who care about the country. For decades our politicians have all been fuelled by personal ambition rather than patriotism. This means they engage in short-termism - they are happy to trade in our future to buy votes; to cripple us with debt to give us short term satisfaction; to make policy based on winning an election rather than building us a future. Both government and opposition treat 5 years of government like a 5-year election campaign. And they are all happy to ignore or create huge problems that will drag us down in the future because they know that by that time they will be gone, touring the lecture circuit and earning millions.

Like her or loather he, the last prime minister who had any conviction was Margaret Thatcher.

The other problem is how selfish individuals have become, meaning that they vote for themselves and not for the country. I do not believe that if WW2 happened today we would see the unity and selflessness the country showed then.

Reply 96

vnupe

Original post by Mick Travis

Let's think about some of the extraordinary things this country has given to the world. English common law, the abolition of slavery, the industrial revolution, an extraordinary array of inventions, massive contribution to science, literature and democratic politics, standing alone in the world against fascism, enormous influence on modern popular music and sport. The list goes on. And yet it seems as if all these great things are in the past. That Britain is now a rather divided, miserable country inextricably declining. Nowhere else does the politics of decline hold so much sway. Our former colonies and much of Europe have left us behind in the prosperity stakes and Asia is catching up.

Can we make Britain great again and how?

I am slightly confused... Great in what context, military? Scientific? Politically? Manufacturing? Business?

In what context are you speaking?

Reply 97

oddsox

Original post by Tin

Actually, I think the ancient Egyptians invented beer, the first ever alphabet, and I'm pretty sure they had money too. If you mean a true alphabet, then surely that was the Italians? I'm also pretty sure you can't invent human rights either, unless you have a different definition to me?

I'm not saying I disagree with what you're saying, but you'll be more convincing with better examples.