[Pn94]

(Original post by RoshniDiya)
Because we're stupid. We are still influenced by Brahamanical culture, which seeks to be patriarchal and create separations through a pathetic caste system. We would rather be part of a flashy, glamorous culture, regardless of what Sikhi actually says. We follow the culture of those who oppress us... of those who portray Sikhs to be total idiotic drunkards through their Bollywood films, those who named their country "Hindustan" even though Sikhs also live in it, and those who are trying to kill us off and have been for years. Ironic, right.

We were shown an amazing path. Guru Nanak Dev Ji stopped sati; the act of Hindu women having to burn themselves alive after their husbands died. Langar, the Guru's kitchen, is open to everyone of all sexes, races and religions; we all sit on the floor to symbolise our equality. A rich king or a poor beggar, no one is greater than the other. Guru ji gave us the names "Singh" and "Kaur" so that there were no further separations based on a person's last name, which indicates their caste. Guru ji declared that we should not believe in the caste system, and instead, "Recognise the entire human race as one." And look at us now; we have separate Gurdwaras based on caste, because we just can't seem to get along. We wear huge khanda chains and rep our caste, as if it's something to be extremely proud of that our ancestors were farmers or something.

We have so much ego and pride that we want to boast about something as insignificant as our caste. We don't listen to our Guru's teachings, instead we do what we want and call ourselves Sikhs... it's like a slap in the face really.

Those are my views anyway.

I agree. Far too many Sikhs are caught up in this caste thing. Me included tbh.

A lot of Sikhs should be considered more 'Punjabi', than Sikh, as they don't follow Sikhi at all apart from visiting the Gurdwara occasionally.

[Pn94]

(Original post by KaurPrincess)
people are not taking sikhi seriously, or are becoming drawn in by other ways of living...they may find sikhi too strict and hard to follow, and a lot of sikhs nowadays dont know enough about their religion to understand whats going on
and the caste system is one of the silliest things that people believe in...and they say they follow sikhi, when sikhi is all about equality...
part of the problem may also be due to the thousands of sikhs killed in 1984 and related happenings, and the drugs problems in punjab right now
i am actually quite proud when i think of all the times sikhs have been persecuted but have still managed to survive...i mean we are the 5th biggest religion, right?
i think we should go one question/topic at a time since it will become too muddles otherwise!
btw what are your views on the dasam granth?

Especially Sikh girls.

[okapobcfc08]

(Original post by KaurPrincess)
eek well i disagree...
i feel that since guru gobind sikh ji told us to follow the SGGS, why should we need to believe in another granth?
if guru ji had wanted us to also read his own bani, he would have surely written it in the SGGS when he was adding guru teg bahadur ji's bani...
and then theres also the thing about how different the dasam granth is structurally and also with reagards to its message, to the SGGS
i'm not extremely well informed about this, so correct me if im wrong!
and also what evidence are you talking about?

Lol, calm down didn't think you would go out all attack. Firstly your point on Badshah Darvesh Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj, yes the 10th master did tell us to follow the king of kings Dhan Dhan Sahib SGGS Maharaj, I'm not disagreeing here. I'm under no ilusion, Sri Dasam Granth is not the living Guru. However, if you dont believe in Sri Dasam Granth, what Nitnem are you going to do with 60% of the bani is from the wisdom of the great 10th master.

Another good point, if Sahib-e-Kamaal Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj wanted us to read Sri Dasam Granth, the Dasam Bani would have been in the living master Dhan Dhan Sahib SGGS Maharaj. This is where people make a mistake. This ties in with your argument about structure of Dasam Bani compared to the bani of the great great 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 9th masters. This is why:

Dasam Granth Sahib was not created specfically for guidance in living a Gursikh life, or how to mediate or not to treat ill of women and other similar principles of life that the king of Kings Dhan Dhan Sahib SGGS Maharaj shows us. Dasam Granth was made to produce the warrior spirit and give strength to Khalsa during the battles. This is why people assume that because Chandi Di Vaar, Chandi Chritar and other hindu-god references involved hindu god's, it means that Dasam Granth is fake. Clearly, if you doing Rehrass Sahib da Path shudh, you will read this line every day.


Mai na gadeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| Kaan sune paihchaan na tin son|| Liv laagimoripag in son||434||
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).434.

This is quite clear from 10th master. Chartiropakhya, again debated by many, is simple. Charitar = story, opakhyan= told from a long time ago. Here, Guru Sahib has used many western tales about women and how they play tricks. It is moral guidance given by the great 10th master.

Finally, you can debate the legtimacy of the Dasam Granth. But I find it funny man. When one of your family members are in hospital with serious problems, or you are scared of a bully, or you want to well in your exams. Why is it that the first thing people will run to for guidance is Chaupai Sahib, a dasam granth bani. Its a bit of double standards isn't it. Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Chaupaid Sahib and Twaie Praasad Svayeeai all sing praises of the great almighty God, echocing the praises set out by the greatest philopsher this world has ever seen, the greatest 1st master. Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj.

Dasam Granth isn't living Guru. But it isn't fake. If you are a amritdhari Sikh, what nitnem will you do. If you abandon Dasam Granth, you are virtually saying thanks but no thanks on the sacrificer of sons, the greatest warrior alongside his grandfather, the emperors of emperors, Nasoor Mansoor Guru Gobind Singh. Even if my arguments are a bit dodgy, I bow to the efforts of Sahib-e-Kamaal the 10th master, hence why I take privilage in reading Dasam Granth bani.

[okapobcfc08]

(Original post by RoshniDiya)
Because we're stupid. We are still influenced by Brahamanical culture, which seeks to be patriarchal and create separations through a pathetic caste system. We would rather be part of a flashy, glamorous culture, regardless of what Sikhi actually says. We follow the culture of those who oppress us... of those who portray Sikhs to be total idiotic drunkards through their Bollywood films, those who named their country "Hindustan" even though Sikhs also live in it, and those who are trying to kill us off and have been for years. Ironic, right.

We were shown an amazing path. Guru Nanak Dev Ji stopped sati; the act of Hindu women having to burn themselves alive after their husbands died. Langar, the Guru's kitchen, is open to everyone of all sexes, races and religions; we all sit on the floor to symbolise our equality. A rich king or a poor beggar, no one is greater than the other. Guru ji gave us the names "Singh" and "Kaur" so that there were no further separations based on a person's last name, which indicates their caste. Guru ji declared that we should not believe in the caste system, and instead, "Recognise the entire human race as one." And look at us now; we have separate Gurdwaras based on caste, because we just can't seem to get along. We wear huge khanda chains and rep our caste, as if it's something to be extremely proud of that our ancestors were farmers or something.

We have so much ego and pride that we want to boast about something as insignificant as our caste. We don't listen to our Guru's teachings, instead we do what we want and call ourselves Sikhs... it's like a slap in the face really.

Those are my views anyway.

Thats better than I could put it. The culture as Manmohan Singh put is like this "indian first, sikh 2nd" what a joke!!!

[umarrehman187]

i wanna find out basic info bout sikhism,

what do they belive in?
who do they pray to?
how do they pray?

[SMEGGGY]

(Original post by okapobcfc08)
Lol, calm down didn't think you would go out all attack. Firstly your point on Badshah Darvesh Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj, yes the 10th master did tell us to follow the king of kings Dhan Dhan Sahib SGGS Maharaj, I'm not disagreeing here. I'm under no ilusion, Sri Dasam Granth is not the living Guru. However, if you dont believe in Sri Dasam Granth, what Nitnem are you going to do with 60% of the bani is from the wisdom of the great 10th master.

Another good point, if Sahib-e-Kamaal Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj wanted us to read Sri Dasam Granth, the Dasam Bani would have been in the living master Dhan Dhan Sahib SGGS Maharaj. This is where people make a mistake. This ties in with your argument about structure of Dasam Bani compared to the bani of the great great 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 9th masters. This is why:

Dasam Granth Sahib was not created specfically for guidance in living a Gursikh life, or how to mediate or not to treat ill of women and other similar principles of life that the king of Kings Dhan Dhan Sahib SGGS Maharaj shows us. Dasam Granth was made to produce the warrior spirit and give strength to Khalsa during the battles. This is why people assume that because Chandi Di Vaar, Chandi Chritar and other hindu-god references involved hindu god's, it means that Dasam Granth is fake. Clearly, if you doing Rehrass Sahib da Path shudh, you will read this line every day.


Mai na gadeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| Kaan sune paihchaan na tin son|| Liv laagimoripag in son||434||
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).434.

This is quite clear from 10th master. Chartiropakhya, again debated by many, is simple. Charitar = story, opakhyan= told from a long time ago. Here, Guru Sahib has used many western tales about women and how they play tricks. It is moral guidance given by the great 10th master.

Finally, you can debate the legtimacy of the Dasam Granth. But I find it funny man. When one of your family members are in hospital with serious problems, or you are scared of a bully, or you want to well in your exams. Why is it that the first thing people will run to for guidance is Chaupai Sahib, a dasam granth bani. Its a bit of double standards isn't it. Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Chaupaid Sahib and Twaie Praasad Svayeeai all sing praises of the great almighty God, echocing the praises set out by the greatest philopsher this world has ever seen, the greatest 1st master. Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj.

Dasam Granth isn't living Guru. But it isn't fake. If you are a amritdhari Sikh, what nitnem will you do. If you abandon Dasam Granth, you are virtually saying thanks but no thanks on the sacrificer of sons, the greatest warrior alongside his grandfather, the emperors of emperors, Nasoor Mansoor Guru Gobind Singh. Even if my arguments are a bit dodgy, I bow to the efforts of Sahib-e-Kamaal the 10th master, hence why I take privilage in reading Dasam Granth bani.

The main thing is that Dhan Dhana Guru Granth Sahib is the Guru. There is no debate, thankfully being a humble slave of the Lord, Guru Gobind Singh Mahraaj Ji did not add the Bachittar Natak [that was the original name, do some research, was never called the Dasam Granth until late]

Anyway, if you're saying there is NO way that that after the time of Guru Mahraaj passing to his Heavenly abode that when the Gurdwaras were in the hands of Masands and other Hindu cretins, that they did not ADD to the Bachittar Natak to delibrately lead Sikhs astray by mentioning such filth of what a man wants to do with a woman, and how a woman is very sly. If you've ever read or heard about Guru Sahib, how can ANYBODY say this is the character of Guru Ji, and would even contemplate such vile words.

BTW such Scripture debates are not exclusive to Sikhism, Christianity has had it for many many years, regarding the Bible and it's authenticty. Same with the Quran, Shias say it's got passages missing which are down to Sunnis. [Like I said for Sikhs Bachittar Natak is not Guru]

[okapobcfc08]

(Original post by SMEGGGY)
The main thing is that Dhan Dhana Guru Granth Sahib is the Guru. There is no debate, thankfully being a humble slave of the Lord, Guru Gobind Singh Mahraaj Ji did not add the Bachittar Natak [that was the original name, do some research, was never called the Dasam Granth until late]

Anyway, if you're saying there is NO way that that after the time of Guru Mahraaj passing to his Heavenly abode that when the Gurdwaras were in the hands of Masands and other Hindu cretins, that they did not ADD to the Bachittar Natak to delibrately lead Sikhs astray by mentioning such filth of what a man wants to do with a woman, and how a woman is very sly. If you've ever read or heard about Guru Sahib, how can ANYBODY say this is the character of Guru Ji, and would even contemplate such vile words.

BTW such Scripture debates are not exclusive to Sikhism, Christianity has had it for many many years, regarding the Bible and it's authenticty. Same with the Quran, Shias say it's got passages missing which are down to Sunnis. [Like I said for Sikhs Bachittar Natak is not Guru]

are you confusing bachitar natak with charitaropakhyan? Sri Dasam Granth was compiled after the amazing 10th master left to merge with almighty lord, by Singh Sahib Bhai Mani Singh Ji, this is accepted by all. Bachittar Natak is the biography of the 10th master, I hardly think someone could go make that up, especially the battle of bhangani and sacrifice of the 9th master, the master whom the whole of india is indebted to, Sahib-e-Alaam, Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Maharaj.

People also confuse chatritaropakhyan by saying that it is erotic or pornographic etc. Clearly, if someone is telling a story with a moral, the subject can be anything. The Dasam Granth contains storys from Italy, France, UK and other foreign countries. The stories describe how a man can get lured into trouble and how a woman can play many tricks. Charitaropakhyan also gives guidance on how Sikhs should rule should they have the chance, you can hardly call that erotic. Also, the Dasam Granth is great, in that it effectively acts as a translator for the old hindu scriptures, so modern day readers will have a clue what is true or false with hinduism. The great 10th master has made hindu and islam scriptures simpler for us to understand.


In terms of authencity. Well look on one side Who backs Dasam Granth:

Damdami Taksal, AKJ, SGPC, Dal Khalsa, Nihangs

Singh Sahib Sant Singh Maskeen, Singh Sahib Yogi Harbhajan Singh, Dr Jodh Singh, Dr Gurcharnjit Singh Lamba. Nawab Kapur Singh, Bhagat Puran Singh and many others.

Then you get tits like Darshan Ragi and fake Dr's like Dilgeer who suggest otherwise. Which side are you going to pick. Respected Sikh organizations and personalities or tits and traitors of the Sikh religion. I know which one I'd pick!!

[SMEGGGY]

(Original post by okapobcfc08)
are you confusing bachitar natak with charitaropakhyan? Sri Dasam Granth was compiled after the amazing 10th master left to merge with almighty lord, by Singh Sahib Bhai Mani Singh Ji, this is accepted by all. Bachittar Natak is the biography of the 10th master, I hardly think someone could go make that up, especially the battle of bhangani and sacrifice of the 9th master, the master whom the whole of india is indebted to, Sahib-e-Alaam, Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Maharaj.

People also confuse chatritaropakhyan by saying that it is erotic or pornographic etc. Clearly, if someone is telling a story with a moral, the subject can be anything. The Dasam Granth contains storys from Italy, France, UK and other foreign countries. The stories describe how a man can get lured into trouble and how a woman can play many tricks. Charitaropakhyan also gives guidance on how Sikhs should rule should they have the chance, you can hardly call that erotic. Also, the Dasam Granth is great, in that it effectively acts as a translator for the old hindu scriptures, so modern day readers will have a clue what is true or false with hinduism. The great 10th master has made hindu and islam scriptures simpler for us to understand.


In terms of authencity. Well look on one side Who backs Dasam Granth:

Damdami Taksal, AKJ, SGPC, Dal Khalsa, Nihangs

Singh Sahib Sant Singh Maskeen, Singh Sahib Yogi Harbhajan Singh, Dr Jodh Singh, Dr Gurcharnjit Singh Lamba. Nawab Kapur Singh, Bhagat Puran Singh and many others.

Then you get tits like Darshan Ragi and fake Dr's like Dilgeer who suggest otherwise. Which side are you going to pick. Respected Sikh organizations and personalities or tits and traitors of the Sikh religion. I know which one I'd pick!!

You know the meaning of Sikh? Learner. Sikhs are ALWAYS learning. They cannot get to the point where they let haumai [ego] take over and say I KNOW it all now. Unless one becomes Brahmgiani [which is very unlikely] Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Sahib Mahraaj himself states do not read blindly, ALWAYS ask what it means, and then fathom it. This too is what is/should be done towards Dasam Granth.

Those you've listed are truly men of high faith and intelligence and Gursikhi.

This is the WHOLE contents of Dasam Granth

The Contents of the Dasam Granth are:

Jaap Sahib (Meditation)
Akal Ustat (praises of God)
Bachitar Natak (autobiography of the Guru)

Chandi Charitar I & II (the character of Goddess Chandi)
Chandi di Var (a ballad to describe Goddess Chandi)

Gyan Prabod (The Awakening of Knowledge)

Chaubis Avtar (Narrative of 24 incarnations of Vishnu as ordered by God Almighty)

Shabad Hazare (Ten Shabads)
Swayyae (33 stanzas)
Khalsa Mehma (the praises of the Khalsa)
Shastar Nam Mala (a list of weapons)
Charitropakhyan (various character of men and women [details both negative and positive])

Chaupai (Sikhism) (hymn of supplication)
Zafarnamah (epistle of victory, a letter written to Emperor Aurangzeb)

Those that are in red are the ones in question. There is noway when studied upon can a true Sikh say it's the verses of the Tenth Guru Nanak Mahraaj! It's contradictory to the Bani of Jaap Sahib!

Here is a debate, some proper Gursikhs of good reputation debate in a calm manner. Take it upon yourself to watch each video and then come to a conclusion. It even gives the books [sources some it is taken from] Part 1 - 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JxTGE2OtM0&feature=rela ted

As for the hukam given by SGPC and Akal Tahkht. It's to keep Sikh unity that's it's not going to dare to raise any shanka [doubt] upon it's authorship.

[KaurPrincess]

(Original post by Pn94)
Especially Sikh girls.

why do you say that?

[MissSBx]

Yay! I'm Sikh too!

[RoshniDiya]

(Original post by umarrehman187)
i wanna find out basic info bout sikhism,

what do they belive in?

One God. The same God looks after everyone on this Earth, from Christians, to Hindus, etc.

who do they pray to?

We pray to God.

how do they pray?

We cover our heads. We can sit cross legged and pray with complete concentration, or some people pray while walking around and doing their every day activities. We read multiple prayers on a daily basis, and the prayers that we read are those written by our Gurus.

[KaurPrincess]

im not gonna adressall of your questions as smeggy has already answered more than i could! just adding a bit:

(Original post by okapobcfc08)
However, if you dont believe in Sri Dasam Granth, what Nitnem are you going to do with 60% of the bani is from the wisdom of the great 10th master.
well technically then i guess we shouldn't include that bani. the rehrass sahib in SGGS just goes up to 'bhaee parapat manukh dehuria'. perhaps we should only do the rehrass sahib as it is in SGGS. correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think the gurus would have wanted us to spend ages doing path, without spending much time actually putting it into principle. it has been suggested that perhaps japji sahib, rehrass sahib, and sohila sahib were the original nitnem - you spend about an hour in total sitting down and doing path, which gives you guidance for the day, instead of spending about 3 hours on this. im sure it would be better to actually fully understand and immerse yourself in these banis than to quickly speed through 5 banis every morning as most people will tend to do

Finally, you can debate the legtimacy of the Dasam Granth. But I find it funny man. When one of your family members are in hospital with serious problems, or you are scared of a bully, or you want to well in your exams. Why is it that the first thing people will run to for guidance is Chaupai Sahib, a dasam granth bani. Its a bit of double standards isn't it. Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Chaupaid Sahib and Twaie Praasad Svayeeai all sing praises of the great almighty God, echocing the praises set out by the greatest philopsher this world has ever seen, the greatest 1st master. Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj.
i, for one, don't rush to do chaupai sahib when someone is ill, and similarly i don't agree with doing akhand path either (although that's probably a different issue). most people aren't aware of the issue of dasam granth so they don't put much thought into what bani they should do..it's just become a standard bani i guess?
Dasam Granth isn't living Guru. But it isn't fake. If you are a amritdhari Sikh, what nitnem will you do. If you abandon Dasam Granth, you are virtually saying thanks but no thanks on the sacrificer of sons, the greatest warrior alongside his grandfather, the emperors of emperors, Nasoor Mansoor Guru Gobind Singh. Even if my arguments are a bit dodgy, I bow to the efforts of Sahib-e-Kamaal the 10th master, hence why I take privilage in reading Dasam Granth bani.
if we dont read dasam granth, that doesn't mean we're not thankful to guru gobind singh ji! it just means that we don't believe it is actually his bani. we show our loyalty to ALL the guru jis through path and good deeds, and trying to follow the principles of sikhi properly

(bhul chuk maf)

[Evielee_17]

(Original post by umarrehman187)
i wanna find out basic info bout sikhism,

what do they belive in?
who do they pray to?
how do they pray?

We believe in God, and equality, and respecting other religious beliefs (quick reminder to those arguing their viewpoints on this thread: keep it respectful please. What impression do you want to give those visiting this thread out of curiosity?). We also believe that God sent Eleven Gurus to give us the message of unity and faith and opposition to oppression in a time of turmoil. The Eleventh Guru happens to be in the form of a "Holy Book" the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

We pray to God. One God.

We pray, through meditation, and reading religious scriptures. We visit the Gurudwara, where we cover our heads, and take our shoes off, and reflect.

[jasbirsingh]

(Original post by RoshniDiya)
Because we're stupid. We are still influenced by Brahamanical culture, which seeks to be patriarchal and create separations through a pathetic caste system. We would rather be part of a flashy, glamorous culture, regardless of what Sikhi actually says. We follow the culture of those who oppress us... of those who portray Sikhs to be total idiotic drunkards through their Bollywood films, those who named their country "Hindustan" even though Sikhs also live in it, and those who are trying to kill us off and have been for years. Ironic, right.

We were shown an amazing path. Guru Nanak Dev Ji stopped sati; the act of Hindu women having to burn themselves alive after their husbands died. Langar, the Guru's kitchen, is open to everyone of all sexes, races and religions; we all sit on the floor to symbolise our equality. A rich king or a poor beggar, no one is greater than the other. Guru ji gave us the names "Singh" and "Kaur" so that there were no further separations based on a person's last name, which indicates their caste. Guru ji declared that we should not believe in the caste system, and instead, "Recognise the entire human race as one." And look at us now; we have separate Gurdwaras based on caste, because we just can't seem to get along. We wear huge khanda chains and rep our caste, as if it's something to be extremely proud of that our ancestors were farmers or something.

We have so much ego and pride that we want to boast about something as insignificant as our caste. We don't listen to our Guru's teachings, instead we do what we want and call ourselves Sikhs... it's like a slap in the face really.

Those are my views anyway.

Hindustan actually means Land of River Sindhu (Indus)

[Evielee_17]

So why was this thread created anyway?! To argue about who believes what, or to unite in the core beliefs of our shared faith?

To any visitors to this thread who happen not to be Sikh:

WE BELIEVE IN EQUALITY.
WE BELIEVE IN RESPECTING OTHERS' VIEWS AND RELIGIONS.

People on this thread would do well remember that.
Who would be proud to be Sikh when all we do is argue amongst ourselves and insult each other?
Don't you think that there are enough people who would be glad to see Sikhi fall apart? Isn't 1984 proof of that?

Don't do their dirty work for them.

[RoshniDiya]

(Original post by jasbirsingh)
Hindustan actually means Land of River Sindhu (Indus)

Woops, my mistake!

[KaurPrincess]

(Original post by Evielee_17)
So why was this thread created anyway?! To argue about who believes what, or to unite in the core beliefs of our shared faith?

To any visitors to this thread who happen not to be Sikh:

WE BELIEVE IN EQUALITY.
WE BELIEVE IN RESPECTING OTHERS' VIEWS AND RELIGIONS.

People on this thread would do well remember that.
Who would be proud to be Sikh when all we do is argue amongst ourselves and insult each other?
Don't you think that there are enough people who would be glad to see Sikhi fall apart? Isn't 1984 proof of that?

Don't do their dirty work for them.

ahh sorry if im giving a bad impression...i just aimed to discuss things...

[aarora]

(Original post by Pn94)
Especially Sikh girls.

What do you mean by that? The same could be said about Sikh boys, the majority don't even wear a turban nowadays.

[okapobcfc08]

(Original post by SMEGGGY)

Those you've listed are truly men of high faith and intelligence and Gursikhi.

This is the WHOLE contents of Dasam Granth

The Contents of the Dasam Granth are:

Jaap Sahib (Meditation)
Akal Ustat (praises of God)
Bachitar Natak (autobiography of the Guru)

Chandi Charitar I & II (the character of Goddess Chandi)
Chandi di Var (a ballad to describe Goddess Chandi)

Gyan Prabod (The Awakening of Knowledge)

Chaubis Avtar (Narrative of 24 incarnations of Vishnu as ordered by God Almighty)

Shabad Hazare (Ten Shabads)
Swayyae (33 stanzas)
Khalsa Mehma (the praises of the Khalsa)
Shastar Nam Mala (a list of weapons)
Charitropakhyan (various character of men and women [details both negative and positive])

Chaupai (Sikhism) (hymn of supplication)
Zafarnamah (epistle of victory, a letter written to Emperor Aurangzeb)

Those that are in red are the ones in question. There is noway when studied upon can a true Sikh say it's the verses of the Tenth Guru Nanak Mahraaj! It's contradictory to the Bani of Jaap Sahib!

Here is a debate, some proper Gursikhs of good reputation debate in a calm manner. Take it upon yourself to watch each video and then come to a conclusion. It even gives the books [sources some it is taken from] Part 1 - 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JxTGE2OtM0&feature=rela ted

As for the hukam given by SGPC and Akal Tahkht. It's to keep Sikh unity that's it's not going to dare to raise any shanka [doubt] upon it's authorship.

I feel a bit patronised here. I have watched anti-dasam granth videos, how do you think I found out that this paap was being commited on Sikh panth. You cant accept some Gurbani and not others. It's like saying you accept the bani of the Sikh masters, but not that of the Bhagats.

Are you going to suggest passages of Dasam Granth which you feel are not the composition of the great 10th master.



Now coming to the banis you have highlighted in red. First to consider Chandi Charitar, Chabus Avatar, Chandi Di Vaar. Again I quote

Mai na gadeshah(i) pritham manaaoon|| Kishan Bishan kab-hoon nah dhiaaoon|| Kaan sune paihchaan na tin son|| Liv laagimoripag in son||434||
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman)


"That is why; Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj gave us the translations of the old religious philosophies for us to compare Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj's Amrit bani with in order for us to really comprehend the true meaning of Gurbani. In the translation of Krishan Avtar, Guruji clearly states: Guruji tells us explicitly that he not acknowledge the godly status given to these avtars, the only reason he has provided us these translations is so that a common man can know what exactly is written in Sanskrit in the other granths about the ways with which people in olden days used to meditate and the kind of practices they were involved in."

(Panth Rattan Singh Sahib Giani Sant Singh Maskeen by Prabhjot Singh (sikhsangat)






The great 10th master is saying it here straight away. Just because the 10th master has written about hindu ideology doesn't mean Guru Sahib worships it or accepts it. The bani you refered, it is about the strength of the gods that was given by Waheguru, it is not about how superb the hindu gods were as hindus. Hence why people do 2+2=5. Here is more clear evidence in Chandi Charitar. Amazingly, it starts off where Jaap Sahib finished.

Swaiya

aadh apaar alaekh ananth akaal abhaekh alaakh anaasaa |
The Supreme Lord is primeval, unbounded, indescribable, without end, immortal, guise less, imperceptible and indestructible.

dhious nisaa sas soor kai dheep s srisatt rachee panch thaath prakaasaa |
He created day and night and in order to illuminate them, He made the sun and the moon as lamps. He devised five elements and formed the whole universe.

bair bataae laraae suraasur aapehi dhaekhath baith thamaasaa | 1|
He incites animosity between the gods and the demons to make them fight and while sitting apart, watches this play.

Do you see? Constant reference to how great the almighty Waheguru is

2nd Swaiya:

thaaran lok oudhaaran bhoomehi dhaith sanghaaran chandd thuhee hai |
O Immortal Power! You are the rescuer of Humans, the redeemer of the earth, the annihilator of the demons and the vehement form.

kaaran ees kalaa kamalaa har adhrasuthaa jeh dhaekhae ouhee hai |
You are Vishnu, the origin of the world and his power larksome. You are Shiva, the destroyer and his consort Prabati. You are resplendent everywhere.

Again, Guru Sahib refereing to hindu gods, but saying that akal purakh is the greatest, no way are the praises of hindu gods being sung as themselves.Then the bani goes on to narrate the slayings and battle that the Hindu gods had. There isn't a utterance of Guru Sahib praising the god themselves.

Bachittar Natak provides similar evidence

kaahae ko koor karai thapasaa ein kee kooo kaaddee kae kaam n aihai |
Why do you perform such false austerities for those gods in order to be blessed; as none of them can procure you a return of a dime.


thohi bachaae sakai kahu kaisae kai aapan ghaav bachaae n aihai |
How can he afford you security; who himself is
imperilled by the blow of the Universal Destroyer.

kop karaal kee paavak kanudd mai aap ttangiou thim thohi ttangaihai
They are all being hung in the furiously dreadful pit of fire; they shall, likewise, cause you to be hung in the same fire

chaeth rae chaeth ajo jeea mai jarr kaal kripaa bin kaam n aihai | 98|
O stupid! remember Him (the Kal) even now from the bottom of your heart; without His grace, none (no god) will be of use to you.(98)


Now, as Chandi Charitar concludes, this is where it is twisted:

namo lankurraesee namo sakath paanee |
I Salute you, the master of Hanuman (Monkey god) and holder of spear in her hand,

namo kaalakaa kharrag paanee kripaanee | 24|243|
I Salute you, the holder of sword in your hand, Kalika, and the manifestation of the sword-.power.(24)(243)


This form of praise continues to the end. Now some people think that as Guru sahib is saluting Chandi or Durga, it means that either Guru Sahib was an advocate of Hindu gods, or the 10th master didnt write this. Both are false. Since Guru Sahib has only thought of Chandi as the power of Akaal Purakh, to praise Chandi is to praise Akal Purakh. Just because it isn't written in black and white doesnt mean it isn't true.

Sahib-e-Kamaal Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj has translated many old hindu granths so people aren't misled by hindus. This is why Dasam Granth contains so many refernces to hindus. Chatitropakhyan I have already explained what that is about, quite easy to understand what it's talking about. Its a 3rd person compilation where a servant is telling his minster about stories of deceit and lust. These stories are those that have been told to Guru Sahib or Guru Sahib has heard from back in the day. It is similar to stories with morals in the bible.

Note that Chaupai Sahib gives us date of completion.


sanbath saathreh sehas bhanjiai | aradh sehas fun theen kehjiai |
Say seventeen hundred, plus one half of a hundred and three (meaning 1753 Indian Calendar).

bhaadhrav sudhee ashattamee rav vaaraa | theer sathudhrav granth sudhaaraa |29| 405|
On the 8th day of light half of the Lunar month Bhadon. On this Sunday, sitting on the bank of the river Sutlej, this Granth was completed after revision.(29)( 405)

[okapobcfc08]

(Original post by KaurPrincess)
im not gonna adressall of your questions as smeggy has already answered more than i could! just adding a bit:
well technically then i guess we shouldn't include that bani. the rehrass sahib in SGGS just goes up to 'bhaee parapat manukh dehuria'. perhaps we should only do the rehrass sahib as it is in SGGS. correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think the gurus would have wanted us to spend ages doing path, without spending much time actually putting it into principle. it has been suggested that perhaps japji sahib, rehrass sahib, and sohila sahib were the original nitnem - you spend about an hour in total sitting down and doing path, which gives you guidance for the day, instead of spending about 3 hours on this. im sure it would be better to actually fully understand and immerse yourself in these banis than to quickly speed through 5 banis every morning as most people will tend to do

i, for one, don't rush to do chaupai sahib when someone is ill, and similarly i don't agree with doing akhand path either (although that's probably a different issue). most people aren't aware of the issue of dasam granth so they don't put much thought into what bani they should do..it's just become a standard bani i guess?

if we dont read dasam granth, that doesn't mean we're not thankful to guru gobind singh ji! it just means that we don't believe it is actually his bani. we show our loyalty to ALL the guru jis through path and good deeds, and trying to follow the principles of sikhi properly


(bhul chuk maf)

I don’t agree with the first point. I am always on at people to read shudh rehrass which includes the bani added on at the end of Chaupai Sahib. Spending ages doing Path? Surely this defies the notion that the king of kings, Sahib SGGS Maharaj, where mediating the name of the almighty and understanding Waheguru’s strength and skill is very important to live life as a Sikh. Doing Path is the one of the few ways this can be done. What do you mean by original nitnem? I find Jaap Sahib, Twaiye Parsaad Swaiye and Chaupai Sahib to be intellectually brilliant and spiritually uplifting bani to read. Jaap Sahib is very simple to understand like the other nitnem bani’s and I’m pretty sure that 99% of panth accepts that it is a 5 bani nitnem in mornings

Yes but even the anti-dasam granth brigade state that some of Dasam Granth is legitimate. If you are rejected it altogether, isn’t that disrespecting? Not reading is different to rejecting it’s legitimacy. Also, if anyone can provide proof, lets have a look what is so fraud about Sri Dasam Granth.