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Got a question about Student Finance? Ask the experts this week on TSR! 14-09-2014
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    (Original post by dogra)
    dogra ji simple question. I bare no offence to Hindu religion, mandairs and practices. But, if a "sikh" of Chitiaan Bajawala The Great 10th Master Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib engages in havan, murti pooja and other practices forbidden by panth parvanat Rehat Maryada, how can you call that person a good sikh?
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    is vegetarianism compulsory in Sikh religion?

    if so, why did some guru ji go hunting?

    thanks.
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    is vegetarianism compulsory in Sikh religion?

    if so, why did some guru ji go hunting?

    thanks.
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    (Original post by okapobcfc08)
    what 5hit you chatting?

    1. Did I say no hindus came out to protect? What I said was you are most likely dissing the people (khalistanis) that were out in force protecing mandirs and mosques. Dont turn this point into a hindu v sikh argument. Please READ the post.

    2. Would I live in Khalistan? No I would not, but what kind of argument is that. I ask for change for Sikhs in India in the form of Khalistan or whatever, not for any personal gain but for a better life for indian sikhs.

    3. Again, jump in with two feet. If you bothered looking, I agree that people there will decide, hence let the UN in and hold the referendum, simple job?

    4. Mate, please do not give sikhs of Sahib-e-Alaam Dasam Pita Sri Guru Gobind Singh a lecture about protecting and what not. Of course I would come out to protect a mandair if it was under seige, my religion tells me too

    5. I dont think going to mandir or gurdwara has any relevance to this argument.

    6. Please do not think that 8 or 10 words of panjabi will make you look tough. See if you can understand this:

    Befkoofa hun gal sun laa, mai tenu pehla kiha si ke koee karaan mainu das ke kate ni khalistan ban sak da. Aaemi kuthe waang paunki janda chungi tara das ke tere nal ki gusa, khalistan kate ni ban sakda? Fansi asi diteean, tuhade bhena dee izaat asi rakhi. Jhaaj da jawab de moorkhaa
    You just love to argue. Also jeh tenu jare vi akhal hundi tenu patha hona si ki mein kuri ahn ya phir tenu punjabi nai bolni andhi teh tu kuri nu bandah banahdita lol case closed
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    (Original post by bbkk15)
    You just love to argue. Also jeh tenu jare vi akhal hundi tenu patha hona si ki mein kuri ahn ya phir tenu punjabi nai bolni andhi teh tu kuri nu bandah banahdita lol case closed
    how was i supposed 2 know your gender? case kehri closed toon ta koee jawab ni dita. Daka dora aunda ni aaemi bootha chak ke boli jandi aan, asi khalistani lokaan ko bahut akal haigi aa. Asi ta panjab ley ik samajik, arthik ate rajneetak hal ta labhia khalistan vich. Ik mauka hor main tinu dindaan, dimaag varte ke das khalistan da ke dar hai tainu?
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1SPWE8y95I

    Khalistan Zindabad!!
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    (Original post by ugk4life)
    is vegetarianism compulsory in Sikh religion?
    Yes.

    if so, why did some guru ji go hunting?
    The Gurus went hunting for two reasons only:
    1) To neutralise threats to villagers from dangerous, man eating animals.
    2) To release settle overdue accounts with animals, and release those who were deserving from reincarnation.

    It was not done for pleasure.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Living in a country like this, we are used to hunting being about small animals like foxes, rabbits etc. The Gurus hunted large animals like lions, bears and elephants, who were terrorising local villagers by destroying their homes and crops. The Gurus were helping the villagers.

    To explain the part about accounts, we'll look at this Sakhi;
    Guru Gobind Singh who sent out his falcon to hunt an animal, once caught he watched as the baaj (falcon) tore into the animals flesh. Asked by one of his Sikhs what was the reasoning behind this. Guru Gobind Singh stated that in a previous life the animal had borrowed some money from the baaj and swore on Akaal Purkh's name that he would pay it back, he never did, now it was pay back time. There are many instances like this which illustrate that the Gurus were not hunting for meat but to save these souls from the continuous cycle of birth and death.

    However, the Gurus restrained from killing animals whenever they could. For example, Guru Har Rai never killed an animal in his life. Instead, he used to rescue old and sick animals, and take them to an animal sanctuary that he had set up. This was the first of its kind in India, as most people didn't appreciate animals (with the exception of cows for Hindus, but no other animals were given such preference or devotion as them). All animals were nurtured there by the Sikhs. This topic is discussed extensively in Mahima Prakash Vol 2.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    There are only two Sakhis in which Guru Hargobind is seen hunting, and only seven of Guru Gobind Singh. Clearly, this is not the typical lifestyle of a hunter as they would have done a lot more if they were just in it for the sport. They had a purpose in doing it, that is why they did it so rarely.
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    (Original post by SaintSoldier)
    Yes.



    The Gurus went hunting for two reasons only:
    1) To neutralise threats to villagers from dangerous, man eating animals.
    2) To release settle overdue accounts with animals, and release those who were deserving from reincarnation.

    It was not done for pleasure.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	300px-LionKIllhargobindsinghmachkund.jpg 
Views:	23 
Size:	43.5 KB 
ID:	140611

    Living in a country like this, we are used to hunting being about small animals like foxes, rabbits etc. The Gurus hunted large animals like lions, bears and elephants, who were terrorising local villagers by destroying their homes and crops. The Gurus were helping the villagers.

    To explain he part about accounts, we'll look at this Sakhi;
    Guru Gobind Singh who sent out his falcon to hunt an animal, once caught he watched as the baaj (falcon) tore into the animals flesh. Asked by one of his Sikhs what was the reasoning behind this. Guru Gobind Singh stated that in a previous life the animal had borrowed some money from the baaj and swore on Akaal Purkhs name that he would pay it back, he never did, now it was pay back time. There are many instances like this which illustrate that the Gurus were not hunting for meat but to save these souls from the continuous cycle of birth and death.

    However, the Gurus restrained from killing animals whenever they could. For example, Guru Gar Rai never killed an animal in his life. Instead, he used to rescue old and sick animals, and take them to an animal sanctuary that he had set up. This was the first of its kind in India, as most people didn't appreciate animals (with the exception of cows for Hindus, but no other animals were given such preference or devotion as them). All animals were nurtured there by the Sikhs. This topic is discussed extensively in Mahima Prakash Vol 2.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	harraicourt1.jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	38.7 KB 
ID:	140619

    There are only two Sakhis in which Guru Hargobind is seen hunting, and only seven of Guru Gobind Singh. Clearly, this is not the typical lifestyle of a hunter as they would have done a lot more if they were just in it for the sport. They had a purpose in doing it, that is why they did it so rarely.
    thanks for clearing this up.
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    Sasrikaal brothers and sisters.

    I was wondering whether anybody could tell me why Sikhs in the following video regularly kill this animal (once a day apparently).

    CRUESOME VIDEO- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtsQYz23UNE
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    (Original post by pinda.college)
    Sasrikaal brothers and sisters.

    I was wondering whether anybody could tell me why Sikhs in the following video regularly kill this animal (once a day apparently).

    CRUESOME VIDEO- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtsQYz23UNE
    "Once a day", I'm sure you made this up.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_...ice_in_Sikhism
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    (Original post by pinda.college)
    Sasrikaal brothers and sisters.

    I was wondering whether anybody could tell me why Sikhs in the following video regularly kill this animal (once a day apparently).

    CRUESOME VIDEO- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtsQYz23UNE
    Because they don't know what their religion teaches them
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    (Original post by okapobcfc08)
    You didn’t mind finding one video, find another? Why should I search you are accusing, you find the proof
    Fast forward to 6:51 in this.


    the 11th master doesn’t define slander using the oxford dicitionary in my opinion. Nindia is the word I would use, I think nindia is what you are doing of Sant Ji
    That's why I quoted the Guru Granth Sahib to define it as well?

    Old rehatnaame specifically state that “take the amrit from 5 Singhs” etc.
    That doesn't mean five "men" though. When we refer to armies, we usually use the term "men," but that doesn't mean that there are only men present in that army. Women can sign up to. It's just the way that the language has developed. The same is true when we say "mankind" - it's just the language.

    For example, suppose we have a group of 1000 people. In the German language, even if 1 person out of 1000 is male, you gramatically have to use the masculine plural (even if most people in the group are female.

    The same is true for Punjabi. When refering to a group of people, it is just custom to refer to them as male. They don't actually all have to be men.

    You didn’t reply to my anand karaj question, lets change that. Allow the bibi to walk infront of the man for equality purposes. Lets alter another of the sidhaants of the masters’ times.
    I don't know enough about the history of Anand Karaj to be able to comment on this issue, so I shall reserve my judgement for now.

    I don’t agree that the govt is solely left to panj piaare, I would like to seek clarification from Khalsa Raaj to see how it was run back in the day. My thoughts were that Khalsaland runs similar to how Panjab political system works with a CM and cabinet. I would like to give the Akaal Takht 999.9999% more power so jathedars like the awe-insipring Akali Baba Phoola Singh can sort out any sikh who does wrong!!
    Clearly, the Akal Takht cannot handle every single small issue of every village in Punjab, in the same way hat Westminster cannot handle all of the issues in every suburb of the UK. That's why we have local governments.

    The Panj Piare are a democratic institute, hence government must be based around them.

    pritham bhagaathee simar kai gur naanak lee dhiaae |
    First of all, having remembered the Lord (Universal Destroyer) I meditate upon Guru Nanak Dev.

    fir angadh gur thae amaradhaas raamadhaasai hoee sehaae |
    And then I concentrate on Guru Angad Dev, Guru Amar Das and Guru Ram Dass, may they ever protect me.

    arajan harigobindh no simara sree hariraae |
    (I, then, contemplate on) Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Hargobind and Guru Har Rai.


    sree har kishan dhiaaeeai jis ddithae sabh dhukh jaae |
    (And then I reflect on) the most Venerable Guru Har Krishan, seeing whom all the sufferings melt away.

    thaeg behaadhar simariai ghar no nidh aavai dhaae |
    I invoke Guru Tegh Bahadur, by whose grace the nine treasures come rushing to my house.

    sabh thaaee hoe sehaae | 1|
    O, my Venerable Masters, may' you protect me everywhere.(1)
    Well that's the Ardas which isn't in the Guru Granth Sahib or Dasam Granth or any reliable Sakhis. All Sikh scholars agree that the Ardas has evolved and changed over time to encompass the various achievements of the Khalsa (eg. Bhai Mani Singh's Shaheedi etc). The Ardas that must Gurdware recite now is not the one recited in Guru Gobind Singh's time. So what is? The Ardas is found in the fifth chapter of Bachitter Natak, "The Description of the Spiritual Kings." It does not contain the invocations to the Gurus of your Ardas.
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    After just looking at the animal killing video posted earlier, I Googled something along the lines of "Sikh animal killings" and found this http://www.lepak.tv/watch/1beb71f268...nside-Gurdwara

    Can someone explain to me why this happened? Why was it allowed to happen inside a Gurdwara? Thanks
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    (Original post by Lakhvir.Singh)
    After just looking at the animal killing video posted earlier, I Googled something along the lines of "Sikh animal killings" and found this http://www.lepak.tv/watch/1beb71f268...nside-Gurdwara

    Can someone explain to me why this happened? Why was it allowed to happen inside a Gurdwara? Thanks
    Here you go paji, interesting article I found.

    http://www.khalsanews.org/articles/B...t%20Nanded.pdf
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    (Original post by okapobcfc08)
    how was i supposed 2 know your gender? case kehri closed toon ta koee jawab ni dita. Daka dora aunda ni aaemi bootha chak ke boli jandi aan, asi khalistani lokaan ko bahut akal haigi aa. Asi ta panjab ley ik samajik, arthik ate rajneetak hal ta labhia khalistan vich. Ik mauka hor main tinu dindaan, dimaag varte ke das khalistan da ke dar hai tainu?
    take your verbal diahorrea elsewhere mate and thats why you should think b4 u bhoonk like a kutha, not afraid of the word khalistan but HINDUSTAN ZINDABAD get your land off the pakistanis mate coz thats where most of punjab use 2 be
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    (Original post by bbkk15)
    take your verbal diahorrea elsewhere mate and thats why you should think b4 u bhoonk like a kutha, not afraid of the word khalistan but HINDUSTAN ZINDABAD get your land off the pakistanis mate coz thats where most of punjab use 2 be
    lol what verbal abuse? wasn't it you who started this and called khalistani's pagal? All i asked you was give me a political (rajneetak), social (smaajik) and economical (arthik) counter argument to a land for Sikhs? We have put many good arguments for independance, yet why do anti-khalistani's like yourself just shout hot air. Give me some stats, some proof, come on, give me something credible as to why Khalistan isn't the right way to go. I'll give you one last chance.
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    (Original post by SaintSoldier)


    1. What does that prove? A man gives Sant Ji’s some rupees as you do to a parchaarak out of respect. Then you rely on the testimony of one Sonia Deol? Did she back up what she said with any sources of information? Mate what a failure, when that documentary came out 99% of Sikhs I knew saw it as a defation of Sant Ji’s character.

    2. Perhaps it me being a fool, but I’m not going to be sorry for having deep respect and long-lasting admiration for a true saint-solider who took 40 odd bullets for Sikhi.

    3. The rehatnama (Bhai Desa Singh) says “panj singhaan”. Bhai Sahib could easily have put singhaanian also.

    4. WHAT YOU ON ABOUT MATE? The pangti I quoted is written by the lion of lions, the great 10th master in the opening to Chandi Di Vaar listed in Sri Dasam Granth. That pangti I quoted is Gurbani. Surprised you didn’t know that mate.

    5. When all is said and done, big respect for not disowning Sri Dasam Granth like other Sikhs.
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    (Original post by Lakhvir.Singh)
    After just looking at the animal killing video posted earlier, I Googled something along the lines of "Sikh animal killings" and found this http://www.lepak.tv/watch/1beb71f268...nside-Gurdwara

    Can someone explain to me why this happened? Why was it allowed to happen inside a Gurdwara? Thanks
    mahasatra was and probably still is a predominantly hindu area. Hindu practices, since being the majority, have creeped into Deccan Gurdwaras (i.e. Sri Hazoor Sahib). Sikhs just let these practices come in centuries ago and just didnt bother to current the wrongs, instead preaching that it was customary tradition. Please watch out for nakali nihangs like the wikipedia page posted early, where a group led by a singh called "niddar" or something have been putting brahminwaadi type methodolgy into sikhism, e.g. animal sacrifice.
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    (Original post by SinghSTAR)
    Sat Sri Akaal!

    Hey everyone- I'm a Sikh too! :bhangra:

    My fantastic Punjabi and Kirtan teacher, Bakshinder Aunty, got me into Sikhi. I was learning shabads with her for a while and she was absolutely fantastic! That's what got me interested in Sikhi.
    This thread is so fresh it must have been written while stepping off the boat. lol jk. I like Sikhs, your beards and turbans are cool I had a friend who was of a sikh background We had loads in common. Shoulda went out with her
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    (Original post by bbkk15)
    take your verbal diahorrea elsewhere mate and thats why you should think b4 u bhoonk like a kutha, not afraid of the word khalistan but HINDUSTAN ZINDABAD get your land off the pakistanis mate coz thats where most of punjab use 2 be
    We freed India, the figures prove it;
    77% of those sent to the gallows were Sikh as were 81% of those sentenced to life imprisonment.
    During the Quit India Movement many indiscriminate arrests were made and Sikhs contributed 70% of the total Punjabis arrested.
    More than 60% of the 20,000 who joined the Indian National Army were Sikhs.

    Bearing in mind at this point we represented less than 1% of India's population - that speaks volumes.

    So we freed India, and now we get told to go to Pakistan? What sort of justice is that? We're getting slapped across the face for supporting India.

    Right now, Sikhs are literally keeping India afloat:
    33% of income taxation comes from Sikhs.
    45% of officers in the Indian Army are Sikhs.
    67% of total charitable donations come from Sikhs.

    India would be nothing without us.

    (Original post by Lakhvir.Singh)
    After just looking at the animal killing video posted earlier, I Googled something along the lines of "Sikh animal killings" and found this http://www.lepak.tv/watch/1beb71f268...nside-Gurdwara

    Can someone explain to me why this happened? Why was it allowed to happen inside a Gurdwara? Thanks
    "When the British conquered and annexed Punjab in 1849 they were aware of the power and glory of the Sikhs. They also knew that Sikh power emerges from the Gurdwaras. Therefore they conceived a sinister plan to scuttle Sikhism by taking control of these institutions of religious power through their agents. In pursuit of their aim they installed Hindu Mahants as managers of important Gurdwaras. For instance, Mahant Narain Das and Mahant Sadhu Ram both anti-Sikh elements, were respectively made in charge of Gurdwara Nankana Sahib and Harimandir Sahib. The fanatic and corrupt Hindu Mahants installed idols in the Gurdwaras and introduced Hindu rites and rituals which were denounced and renounced by the Sikh Gurus. In this way the Mahants brought Sikh religion under the evil influence of Hinduism and muddled it greatly."
    (The Gallant Defender, Dr. A.R. Darshi, 25)

    (Original post by pinda.college)
    Here you go paji, interesting article I found.

    http://www.khalsanews.org/articles/B...t%20Nanded.pdf
    That article is 100% BS. What a colossal liar.

    Notice how he doesn't provide any references for his "history." He so easily says that meat eating was common in the langar, but doesn't provide any proof.

    I'll counter any reference he made to the Guru Granth Sahib here

    “First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh."
    (Guru Granth Sahib, Ang 1289)

    It is important to look at the circumstances in which Shabads were revealed. This one was revealed at Kurukshetra, and is recorded in Bhai Mani Singh's Gyan Ratnavali.

    Basically some Vaishnav Hindu Pandits were in the village. Their whole spirituality revolves around being vegetarian. Aside from that, they can drink, smoke, gamble etc. But they made a big show about how they are so great because they don't touch meat. In fact, they wouldn't even go into a village where meat has been served, because they though it would make them "impure." Clearly this is a superstitious practice, that the Gurus wanted the Sikhs to avoid. We are vegetarians, but that doesn't mean that we move house because meat has been served across the street. That's just stupid. Guru Sahib is telling us that meat in itself is not "impure," it's the killing of meat that is wrong. He didn't want us to turn into what Jains are today.

    Secondly, regarding the quote from Ang 1275 - let's actually see the whole context of the Shabad before jumping to conclusions.

    "1. Malaar, First Mehl:
    You do not understand the nature of death and liberation. You are sitting on the river-bank; realize the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ||1||
    You stork! - how were you caught in the net? You do not remember in your heart the Unseen Lord God. ||1||Pause||
    For your one life, you consume many lives. You were supposed to swim in the water, but you are drowning in it instead. ||2||
    You have tormented all beings. When Death seizes you, then you shall regret and repent. ||3||
    When the heavy noose is placed around your neck, you may spread your wings, but you shall not be able to fly. ||4||
    You enjoy the tastes and flavors, you foolish self-willed manmukh. You are trapped. You can only be saved by virtuous conduct, spiritual wisdom and contemplation. ||5||
    Serving the God, you will shatter the Messenger of Death. In your heart, dwell on the True Word of the Shabad. ||6||
    The Guru's Teachings, the True Word of the Shabad, is excellent and sublime. Keep the Name of the Lord enshrined in your heart. ||7||
    One who is obsessed with enjoying pleasures here, shall suffer in pain hereafter. O Nanak, there is no liberation without the True Name. ||8||2||5||"

    (Guru Granth Sahib, Ang 1275)

    Clearly the Guru is speaking against meat eating here.

    And thirdly, Ang 955:

    "Animals eat other animals; this is what the Lord has given them as food. He created them in the oceans, and He provides for them as well. O Nanak, don't be anxious; the Lord will take care of you. ||1||"
    (Guru Granth Sahib, Ang 955)

    I have underlined "them" and "you" for a reason. Clearly, we can observe in nature that that animals eat meat. The Guru Granth Sahib describes how life formed, and states that animals eat meat. However, it says "don't be anxious" - meaning that this meat isn't for us and that "The Lord will take care of you" in another way. The distinction between "them" (animals) and "you" (humans) is made so that this is clear.

    "They belong to the human species, but they act like animals."
    (Guru Granth Sahib, Ang 267)

    Also, with regards to the Rehat Maryada, "Kuttha" refers to all kinds of meat, not just Halal.

    Taken from www.sikhanswers.com

    INTERPRETATION OF THE WORD “KUTTHAA”


    In Dictionary of Guru Granth Sahib by Surinder Singh Kohli on page 205 is the following entry:
    Kutha: (ਕੁਠਾ) adj (from Punjabi Kohana) Slaughtered.

    From Punjabi-English English-Punjabi Dictionary by Krishan Kumar Goswani Page 91
    Kohnaa ( ਕੋਹਣਾ ) v To torture, to slay, to kill

    1. The word ਕੁਠਾਰੁ “Kuthaar”

    a) SGGS page 693:


    ਬਜਰ ਕੁਠਾਰੁ ਮੋਹਿ ਹੈ ਛੀਨਾਂ ਕਰਿ ਮਿੰਨਤਿ ਲਗਿ ਪਾਵਉ ॥
    bajar kuthaar mohi hai chheenaaN kar minat lag paava-o.
    “I fell at the Guru`s feet and begged of Him; with the mighty axe, I have chopped off emotional attachment.”

    Here word “Kuthaar” appears to mean “Axe”

    b) SGGS page 714


    ਕਾਢਿ ਕੁਠਾਰੁ ਪਿਤ ਬਾਤ ਹੰਤਾ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਉ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    kaadh kuthaar pit baat hantaa a-ukhaDh har ko naa-o. ||1|| rahaa-o.||
    “The Name of the Lord is the medicine; it is like an axe, which destroys the diseases caused by anger and egotism. ||1||Pause||”

    Again the word “Kuthaar” appears to mean “Axe”

    2. The word ਕੁਠਾਰਿ “kuthaar”

    SGGS Page 1225 Full Shabad


    ਹਰਿ ਕਾਟੀ ਕੁਟਿਲਤਾ ਕੁਠਾਰਿ ॥
    har kaatee kutiltaa kuthaar.
    The Lord has cut down the crooked tree of my deceit.

    3. The Word ਕੁਠੇ ॥ “kuthay”

    SGGS Page 1019 Full Shabad


    ਅਜਰਾਈਲਿ ਫੜੇ ਫੜਿ ਕੁਠੇ ॥
    ajraa-eel farhay farh kuthay.
    “Azraa-eel, the Angel of Death, seizes and tortures them.”

    The word “Kuttha” (ਕੁਠਾ) appears in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji a number of times. Kuttha can have two meanings: either to butcher, kill or destroy or alternatively, it can mean meat (the product of killing, butchering, destroying). The root of “Kuttha” is “Kutthaar” or axe. A word that operates like “Kuttha” is “muthha” which refers to the act of looting and also the product of looting i.e. “the loot”. In this way, Kuttha can mean, “to butcher/ kill/ destroy” and also refers to the product i.e. “butchered meat”. It cannot by any means refer to Halal meat or Muslim meat.

    Everyday we kill countless organisms just through breathing or stepping, but that is much different than Kuttha. Kuttha is the meat of an animal that has been ‘butchered’ and then ‘intentionally’ eaten.

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