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Omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent

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    This has always been my main problem with the idea of the Christian/Muslim/Jewish God. Although believers will differ in many aspects of their beliefs, few will doubt this central premise. This is that God is all powerful, all knowing and all loving.

    I don't believe in a God or Gods and likely never will. For most Abrahamic religions that's a one way ticket to Hell. However according to scripture God created me so...

    If God knew this would happen, loved me, but could do nothing to stop it, then God is not omnipotent.

    If God did not know this would happen, loved me and had the power to change if God knew, then God is not omniscient.

    If God both knew and had the power to change this, but chose not to, then God is not omnibenevolent.

    Would be grateful for a rebuttal of this line of thinking.
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    Omnigullible
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    what about the whole free will thing?
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    (Original post by naommi)
    what about the whole free will thing?
    God will surely know what I am going to do before I do it even from the point of conception if God is omniscient? Then God either had the power to change me and didn't so is not all loving or wanted to change me but couldn't so is not all loving?
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    Aquinas argued that God gave us free will, and that's the general Catholic (and I suppose christian... although you'll always have different views) viewpoint. If God created us with a set path as determinists would argue, then logically he could not reward us in heaven, as we never chose to love him. God wants to reward those who love him, and act virtuously - meaning he can still keep his 3 'omni qualities'.

    Then there's the debate about how can we have free will if God can see our future because he's omniscient etc. Others mayargue using a Boethius perspective saying that God is timeless, and whilst he does see everything, he does not see it via the principle of time... but rather, on a single simultaneous continuum.
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    (Original post by Ben F)
    Aquinas argued that God gave us free will, and that's the general Catholic (and I suppose christian... although you'll always have different views) viewpoint. If God created us with a set path as determinists would argue, then logically he could not reward us in heaven, as we never chose to love him. God wants to reward those who love him, and act virtuously - meaning he can still keep his 3 'omni qualities'.

    Then there's the debate about how can we have free will if God can see our future because he's omniscient etc. Others mayargue using a Boethius perspective saying that God is timeless, and whilst he does see everything, he does not see it in the principle of time... but rather, on a single simultaneous continuum.
    It is possible that we all have made are choices and are now living through them now, not in the sense that we don't have control, but in the sense that all of the choices that we make we already made.
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    (Original post by gradjobplease)
    This has always been my main problem with the idea of the Christian/Muslim/Jewish God. a frequent topic of debate and discussion and the subject of countless identical threads in the past.
    Fixed.
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    (Original post by Bslforever)
    Fixed.
    Thanks for addressing the points raised.
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    (Original post by naommi)
    what about the whole free will thing?
    Damn! Beat me to it! :pierre:
    :^_^:
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    (Original post by gradjobplease)
    God will surely know what I am going to do before I do it even from the point of conception if God is omniscient? Then God either had the power to change me and didn't so is not all loving or wanted to change me but couldn't so is not all loving?
    You issue is with the existence of hell, not Gods infinite capabilities.
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    (Original post by Core)
    You issue is with the existence of hell, not Gods infinite capabilities.
    Do you not think this is fairly central to most people's beliefs in God as well?

    (I didn't make this explicit in the original post)
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    (Original post by naommi)
    what about the whole free will thing?
    Free will ? :rofl:
    There ain't one... great ol fairy tale... OK for arguments sake,let's assume that there might be a thing called 'free-will' but how will theist respond to the question which follows next,fine if the creator has bestowed us with one, in the end HE already knew of the outcome and was the one who created/made it probable to begin with then in such case why does person XYZEX deserves an eternity of pain and suffering. How does an All Loving,all knowing and all wise fit into this ?

    Causality....


    Open to criticism.
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    (Original post by gradjobplease)
    Do you not think this is fairly central to most people's beliefs in God as well?

    (I didn't make this explicit in the original post)
    This is a religious concept, and not exclusive with the purely theistic one, also there are different variations of what hell is to some people, for some it is eternal pain, for others it is long periods of guilt and feeling distant from God.
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    (Original post by ibysaiyan)
    Free will ? :rofl:
    There ain't one... great ol fairy tale... OK for arguments sake,let's assume that there might be a thing called 'free-will' but how will theist respond to the question which follows next,fine if the creator has bestowed us with one, in the end HE already knew of the outcome and was the one who created/made it probable to begin with then in such case why does person XYZEX deserves an eternity of pain and suffering. How does an All Loving,all knowing and all wise fit into this ?

    Causality....


    Open to criticism.
    Who decides what is wrong or right you? For this argument to work we first have to assume that you and God share the same morality. Thus for you to make this arguments against theism you must first accept then make assumptions on it.
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    (Original post by gradjobplease)
    Thanks for addressing the points raised.
    I would have if they hadn't already been addressed extensively by me and several others in the past.
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    According to the bible God is beyond our comprehension, and by proxy beyond our language to describe him, so when it refers to God for instance as All powerful, it may not literally mean all powerful, but more beyond our comprehension of power ( as a being would have to be to create the universe and life )

    A number of things back this up, for instance the rebellion and subsequent fall, why would Lucifer and a number of other angels rebel if they knew it was futile? (Holy scriptures seem to suggest that angels are intelligent beings, even more so than us) also why would it take god 6 days to create the world, when if he was completely omnipotent he could have done it instantly.

    God doesn’t need to be All powerful to create the universe, he needs to be powerful for sure however everything has limits, even god.

    This could remove the argument as if god does infact have limits, then he may not know how we are going to turn out
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    (Original post by jimi191)
    According to the bible God is beyond our comprehension, and by proxy beyond our language to describe him, so when it refers to God for instance as All powerful, it may not literally mean all powerful, but more beyond our comprehension of power ( as a being would have to be to create the universe and life )

    A number of things back this up, for instance the rebellion and subsequent fall, why would Lucifer and a number of other angels rebel if they knew it was futile? (Holy scriptures seem to suggest that angels are intelligent beings, even more so than us) also why would it take god 6 days to create the world, when if he was completely omnipotent he could have done it instantly.

    God doesn’t need to be All powerful to create the universe, he needs to be powerful for sure however everything has limits, even god
    Where does it say God needed to creat the universe in a minimum of 6 days? The angels that rebelled where immensely powerful, they were intelligent but not omniscient, thus they thought there combined strength would be enough.
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    If you could reason with religious people, they wouldn't be religious.
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    (Original post by lovely_me)
    If you could reason with religious people, they wouldn't be religious.
    So witty well done you.
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    (Original post by Core)
    Where does it say God needed to creat the universe in a minimum of 6 days? The angels that rebelled where immensely powerful, they were intelligent but not omniscient, thus they thought there combined strength would be enough.
    It doesn’t, but why do something in 6 days you could do instantly, I have never seen a good explanation for that.

    If Angels are intelligent and had a knowledge of god (which I presume due to their nature they did) then they must have had a realistic hope they could triumph, if God was literally omnipotent then they would have known their combined strength would have resulted in failure, Lucifer especially who was one of gods most prized angels from a tactical point of view would not have gone in or led his fellow angels without knowing its possible for him to win.

    God is far beyond our comprehension and just because he has limits does not mean he should not be worshiped, however it would give an explanation to the questions regarding evil and suffering presented to theists, also from a logical point of view I cannot believe anything can be omnipotent, omniscient or omnibenevolent.

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