[Steevee]

(Original post by Organ)
A self proclaimed edl defender is a self proclaimed idiot.

The edl are just a bunch of bullies, straight out. It's very easy to pick on the weakest in society - it isn't interesting and it isn't new. I think we have seen enough boring bigotry as a nation and I am ashamed the edl exists and I think that it reflects badly on our country.

If you say so

And I think Islamists are just a bunch of bullies. It's very easy to play the victim card and recieve support from a government that is afraid to offend in any way. I think we've seen enough backwards discrimination as a nation and I am ashamed that we allow institutionalised discrimination and indoctrination to go on with government funding and I think it reflects badly on our country.

[Organ]

(Original post by Steevee)
If you say so

And I think Islamists are just a bunch of bullies. It's very easy to play the victim card and recieve support from a government that is afraid to offend in any way. I think we've seen enough backwards discrimination as a nation and I am ashamed that we allow institutionalised discrimination and indoctrination to go on with government funding and I think it reflects badly on our country.

having an issue with islamism is different to attacking muslims as a homogenous group, which is all that I see the 'edl' doing. the edl are protesting things like a construction of a mosque in cambridge - this is just out and out bullying of a community that already has to put up with a lot of unjustified crap anyway. it's a similar thing to when they attempted to protest harrow mosque and tried to stir up trouble in bradford (which is close to where I live). it's the same old national front/bnp esque troublemakers who have simply latched onto the current anti-muslim zeitgeist. i'm not going to sit back and watch a group of thugs do a nationwide tour harrasing muslims in various locations around the country - the fact that people are doing this makes me ashamed of our society.

[Steevee]

(Original post by Organ)
having an issue with islamism is different to attacking muslims as a homogenous group, which is all that I see the 'edl' doing. the edl are protesting things like a construction of a mosque in cambridge - this is just out and out bullying of a community that already has to put up with a lot of unjustified crap anyway. it's a similar thing to when they attempted to protest harrow mosque and tried to stir up trouble in bradford (which is close to where I live). it's the same old national front/bnp esque troublemakers who have simply latched onto the current anti-muslim zeitgeist. i'm not going to sit back and watch a group of thugs do a nationwide tour harrasing muslims in various locations around the country - the fact that people are doing this makes me ashamed of our society.

First of all they don't

And what is wrong with opposing the creation of Mosques? Especially when they stick out like a sore thumb. I'm sure you wouldn't like a Satanic Church on your doorstep, and I find Islam equally abhorrent as I find Satanism.

[Rogercbinboy]

(Original post by Steevee)
First of all the EDL is specifically about Islam, so you can't really complain when they don't protest about other issues. Non-point.

And there are some groups of people stirring up trouble there. There always are, I don't condone it and neither does the EDL, but the EDL is about Islam, not any other issue.

And I couldn't give a hoot if someone burns a Bible, a flag or an effigy. What annoys me is people who tell me what I can't do. If a Muslim tells me I can't burn a Quran, then bam, I've got ten times the reason to do it. If a Muslim threatens to kill me because I drew Mohammed, bam, I'ma go ahead and draw old Mo'. That's the reason I posted an image of Mohammed on the internet and have never posted one of Jesus. Not because I think Jesus is any better, or Christianity is any better than Islam, but because Christians don't threaten to kill me if I draw a picture of Jesus. Christians didn't behead people just months ago because some one, somewhere in the world burnt a Quran.

The EDL is against certain facets of one religion, not the religion as a whole. And I vocally support the campaign for secularism, but there is no great street movement for it. There hardly needs to be, the influence any Christian lobby has on our laws is minimal.

Fair point, anyway I can't debate this anymore since have an exam on Friday to prepare for.

As a final point though you're obviously a lot smarter and more eloquent than most EDL members (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQVytGOYzig) I still think that you're causing more damage than you're solving and although I agree with what you just said, I highly doubt that the rest of EDL shares your views.

If you only have issues with 'certain facets of one religion' then stop using slogans that discriminate against the religion as a whole. I personally don't see any difference between Islam and any other religion - if the Middle East was Christian then their people would be acting in the same way, I think that it's their situation that causes the extremism and not the religion and the solution definitely isn't to encourage a nation to alienate and fear Muslims.

[Rogercbinboy]

(Original post by Steevee)
First of all they don't

And what is wrong with opposing the creation of Mosques? Especially when they stick out like a sore thumb. I'm sure you wouldn't like a Satanic Church on your doorstep, and I find Islam equally abhorrent as I find Satanism.

Scrap what I just said about understanding your point.

Apparently you are just a bigot.

[Steevee]

(Original post by Rogercbinboy)
Fair point, anyway I can't debate this anymore since have an exam on Friday to prepare for.

As a final point though you're obviously a lot smarter and more eloquent than most EDL members (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQVytGOYzig) I still think that you're causing more damage than you're solving and although I agree with what you just said, I highly doubt that the rest of EDL shares your views.

If you only have issues with 'certain facets of one religion' then stop using slogans that discriminate against the religion as a whole. I personally don't see any difference between Islam and any other religion - if the Middle East was Christian then their people would be acting in the same way, I think that it's their situation that causes the extremism and not the religion and the solution definitely isn't to encourage a nation to alienate and fear Muslims.

Pfft, exmas.

Just kidding, just kidding.

And that's just the EDL. And what slogans would those be? And I don't agree as regards the Middle East. There is always conflict in poverty, but the type we are seeing seems to be relativley unique to Islamic poverty, although there are similar instances with Hindu's at points in history. In African countries with similar levels of poverty and corruption we do see some horrific things coming from Christianity, but they are far removed from the actions of the Middle East.

[Steevee]

(Original post by Rogercbinboy)
Scrap what I just said about understanding your point.

Apparently you are just a bigot.

Why am I a bigot? Because I express an opinion you don't agree with? Because I refuse to see Islam as a good thing? I think it is on a par with every other openly abhorrent religion I've ever seen. More people have been killed in the name of Islam than Statanism. There is more discrimination and hatred because of Islam then there ever will be because of Satanism. So what, are you angry because I compared the two?

And I find it laughable that you assume Stanism is so bad. You know in true Satanism there is none of the nastieness you no doubt associate with the term? But you wouldn't know that, because you are an ignorant bigot.

[Organ]

(Original post by Steevee)
First of all they don't

And what is wrong with opposing the creation of Mosques? Especially when they stick out like a sore thumb. I'm sure you wouldn't like a Satanic Church on your doorstep, and I find Islam equally abhorrent as I find Satanism.

Because there is a such thing as religious freedom and in a free society people are able to worship their religion without hassle and intimidation. Bullying muslims simply because they want to open a mosque is wrong. People deserve basic human dignities and one of which is opening a place of worship - just as jews and christians have been doing for centuries in the United Kingdom. You also cannot seriously expect muslims to integrate into mainstream British society (as most do at the moment) if you ban their places of worship, whilst allowing Sikhs, Catholics, Hindus and Jews to open places of worship. That isn't the Britain that I recognise, and it isn't the Britain that my grandad fought to preserve as a pilot over the Atlantic in World War Two, nor would I wish to be part of a society anywhere in the world that bans people from opening a mosque simply because you don't like them, or you don't like muslims.

[Steevee]

(Original post by Organ)
Because there is a such thing as religious freedom and in a free society people are able to worship their religion without hassle and intimidation. Bullying muslims simply because they want to open a mosque is wrong. People deserve basic human dignities and one of which is opening a place of worship - just as jews and christians have been doing for centuries in the United Kingdom. You also cannot seriously expect muslims to integrate into mainstream British society (as most do at the moment) if you ban their places of worship, whilst allowing Sikhs, Catholics, Hindus and Jews to open places of worship. That isn't the Britain that I recognise, and it isn't the Britain that my grandad fought to preserve as a pilot over the Atlantic in World War Two, nor would I wish to be part of a society anywhere in the world that bans people from opening a mosque simply because you don't like them, or you don't like muslims.

OH it's not just to do with not liking Islam. One issue I take with Mosques is the architectural form they often take. It sticks out like a sore thumb, with no place in the surroundings, no other building would be allowed to be put up looking like that, but because it's a Mosque, it's allowed. Equally I disagree with a lot of coucil subsidies and allocations Mosques get in the name of 'intergration' and so forth. And finally, it is every citizens right to object, and certainly the right of the citizen in the area to object to any building going up. Look it up, that's why they have to make notices of new buildings going up and have consultation periods and so forth. I know in a town near mine the local library was rejected by the residents. I guess they must damn dirty racist bookophobes eh?

[Rogercbinboy]

(Original post by Organ)
Because there is a such thing as religious freedom and in a free society people are able to worship their religion without hassle and intimidation. Bullying muslims simply because they want to open a mosque is wrong. People deserve basic human dignities and one of which is opening a place of worship - just as jews and christians have been doing for centuries in the United Kingdom. You also cannot seriously expect muslims to integrate into mainstream British society (as most do at the moment) if you ban their places of worship, whilst allowing Sikhs, Catholics, Hindus and Jews to open places of worship. That isn't the Britain that I recognise, and it isn't the Britain that my grandad fought to preserve as a pilot over the Atlantic in World War Two, nor would I wish to be part of a society anywhere in the world that bans people from opening a mosque simply because you don't like them, or you don't like muslims.

Couldn't agree more.

And Christianity has killed just as many people through history as Islam (see the crusades) you just hate Islam as a knee-jerk reaction from extremism and out of fear, and then you convey you're hatred to Muslim people regardless of whether they're extremists because, as Organ rightly put it - you're bullies.

[GraviticWar]

(Original post by tvdx)
It's because they're thick, and thickness and racism are linked.

So all those who believed and help forward the Nazi's racist ideology were ''thick''???[its a fragile ''link''] I just don't think they were somehow. Most of the Nazi scientists were involved and believed fully in forwarding a Nazi militarism and a ''scientific'' form of racism and nationalism that went alongside it, yet, they still invented the jet-engine etc. Those who support the EDL however, most certainly are ''thick'', they are the type of ''thick'' people that will just mindlessly follow anything that gives them a feeling of a sense of purpose[racism fulfills this for them the easiest] because they often have nothing more productive to do with themselves. One of the more ''thick'' and clearly productive[sarcastic...] EDL members thought that dressing up as a Chicken[whilst drunk], and running up and down the street outside of my local KFC[whilst making Chicken noises???...] to protest about Halal meat would be a good and effective use of his obviously to freely available time - don't really know what a drunken man, wearing a Chicken suit and making random and idiotic sounding Chicken noises has to do with forwarding a protest against Halal meat to be completely honest.

[Organ]

(Original post by Steevee)
OH it's not just to do with not liking Islam. One issue I take with Mosques is the architectural form they often take. It sticks out like a sore thumb, with no place in the surroundings, no other building would be allowed to be put up looking like that, but because it's a Mosque, it's allowed. Equally I disagree with a lot of coucil subsidies and allocations Mosques get in the name of 'intergration' and so forth. And finally, it is every citizens right to object, and certainly the right of the citizen in the area to object to any building going up. Look it up, that's why they have to make notices of new buildings going up and have consultation periods and so forth. I know in a town near mine the local library was rejected by the residents. I guess they must damn dirty racist bookophobes eh?

There is a difference between compromise between residents wanting changes to a mosque design and not wanting mosques per se to constructed as you said in your previous post. Regards this Cambridge mosque, which the EDL are protesting, http://www.marksbarfield.com/project.php?projectid=50 it seems fine. There are plently of eyesores in modern Britain. It is no persons right to strip muslims of their religious freedom - in a move akin to the early days of Nazi Germany - and it is nobody's right to say that no mosques can be constructed. I'm not aware of any council subsidies recieved by mosques and I would be interested if you could provide any evidence of this, if this is the case then I disagree with it, but it does not detract from the main point - which is that as British subjects; muslims have every right to build a mosque for themselves.

[Steevee]

(Original post by Organ)
There is a difference between compromise between residents wanting changes to a mosque design and not wanting mosques per se to constructed as you said in your previous post. Regards this Cambridge mosque, which the EDL are protesting, http://www.marksbarfield.com/project.php?projectid=50 it seems fine. There are plently of eyesores in modern Britain. It is no persons right to strip muslims of their religious freedom - in a move akin to the early days of Nazi Germany - and it is nobody's right to say that no mosques can be constructed. I'm not aware of any council subsidies recieved by mosques and I would be interested if you could provide any evidence of this, if this is the case then I disagree with it, but it does not detract from the main point - which is that as British subjects; muslims have every right to build a mosque for themselves.

They have every right to build one, and others have every right to oppose it. Equal rights my dear, equal rights.

For one there is something called PVE funding, although it may have changed name now. Subsidies given to religious institutions that claim to be opposing violent extremism. There are also cases of council land being given over to Mosque sites for rents of something like £1 a year, it was hilighted in a video shown on BBC3 I think. I'm looking for it now. It's in the middle of the BBC3 documentary 'Young, Angry and British.'

And for crying out loud, don't compare Britain to NAzi Germany. It just weakens your case.

[Steevee]

(Original post by Rogercbinboy)
Couldn't agree more.

And Christianity has killed just as many people through history as Islam (see the crusades) you just hate Islam as a knee-jerk reaction from extremism and out of fear, and then you convey you're hatred to Muslim people regardless of whether they're extremists because, as Organ rightly put it - you're bullies.

No my dear, that's not the case at all.

For one, our problem is with Islam and certain parts of Islam because of what Islam teaches and acitvley practices. Yes, Christianity has killed many through the ages, but most CHristians these days don't think that divine law is the best law. 1/3 of Christian students don't think it's right to kill in the name of their religion. Christianity moderates itself and moves forward, Islam stays as stoicly backward as ever.

[Time Tourist]

(Original post by Abir Ishtiaq)
*

Explanation: Proletariat. If you're a true leftie you should really be with them deep down given that they are working class after all, and therefore integral to the class struggle.

[Organ]

(Original post by Steevee)
They have every right to build one, and others have every right to oppose it. Equal rights my dear, equal rights.

For one there is something called PVE funding, although it may have changed name now. Subsidies given to religious institutions that claim to be opposing violent extremism. There are also cases of council land being given over to Mosque sites for rents of something like £1 a year, it was hilighted in a video shown on BBC3 I think. I'm looking for it now. It's in the middle of the BBC3 documentary 'Young, Angry and British.'

And for crying out loud, don't compare Britain to NAzi Germany. It just weakens your case.

Can you any written evidence of this claim.

I think that stripping people of religious freedom is very akin to the early days of Nazi Germany. If Britain reaches the point where one religious group is banned from practicing a religion then it is very relevant to draw comparisions with an ideology that hundreds of thousands of Britains died fighting. I don't really understand how you can't recognise the fact that this curtailing of religious freedom would be a depature from centuries of religious tolerance in the West - whether it be the values in the constitution of the United States or the Declaration of Indulgence here in the UK.

[Leon Trotsky]

Because it's a facet of the wonderful English culture they're trying to protect from destruction at the hands of the evil Moslems.

[thecookiemonster]

(Original post by tvdx)
Fair enough, but the fact there are some thick racists is the answer to the question the OP posed.

I haven't heard Griffin speak, other than on Question Time, but I thought he got totally outclassed in that environment.

Now I'm the complete opposite of a BNP supporter, but i hated the way that question time was done. It was all planned out right from the start to embarrass and humiliate Nick Griffin. They wouldn't let him get a word in edgeways, and many of them treated him like scum on their shoe. Now I know he's got disgusting views, but question time is supposed to be a fair environment. And Nick Griffin did definetly not get that.

[Steevee]

(Original post by Organ)
Can you any written evidence of this claim.

I think that stripping people of religious freedom is very akin to the early days of Nazi Germany. If Britain reaches the point where one religious group is banned from practicing a religion then it is very relevant to draw comparisions with an ideology that hundreds of thousands of Britains died fighting. I don't really understand how you can't recognise the fact that this curtailing of religious freedom would be a depature from centuries of religious tolerance in the West - whether it be the values in the constitution of the United States or the Declaration of Indulgence here in the UK.

There is evidence in the documentary of the claim I said had evidence in the documentary

Here's a Guardian source on the matter of PVE, especially for you. Just reading the GUardian makes my skin crawl normally, so feel special. If you want more information just google Preventing Violent Extremism. Oh, and don't believe the Guardian article title, the system is still in place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...lent-extremism

And in Nazi Germany you had illegitimate governmental persecution of Jews, systamtically removing all of their rights and civil liberties. HEre in the UK you have governmental 'affirmative' action that favours MUslims for a great many things, such as council housing in certain areas and also plays a part in downplaying any Muslim involvement in crime. What you do have hear is a street movement opposed to the Islamification of our law and streets. Vastly different and to draw a comparison is frankly, pathetic.

[Organ]

(Original post by Steevee)
There is evidence in the documentary of the claim I said had evidence in the documentary

Here's a Guardian source on the matter of PVE, especially for you. Just reading the GUardian makes my skin crawl normally, so feel special. If you want more information just google Preventing Violent Extremism. Oh, and don't believe the Guardian article title, the system is still in place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...lent-extremism

Well according to the article that you posted the programme no longer exists, so that is no longer grounds for opposition. Do you have any evidence that it is still in place?

And in Nazi Germany you had illegitimate governmental persecution of Jews, systamtically removing all of their rights and civil liberties. HEre in the UK you have governmental 'affirmative' action that favours MUslims for a great many things, such as council housing in certain areas and also plays a part in downplaying any Muslim involvement in crime. What you do have hear is a street movement opposed to the Islamification of our law and streets. Vastly different and to draw a comparison is frankly, pathetic.

I am not aware of muslims being favoured with council housing, could you please show me a document or respected article proving this claim? Freedom of religion is a right and a civil liberty in this society by the way. I would say the government takes muslim crime seriously, as well as Islamism - as indicated by the fact the previous administration invaded two foreign countries. As I said, I live near Bradford, and there is no evidence of Islamification - other than simply the muslim population is larger than it was say twenty years ago - aside from this obvious fact that the muslim population is larger, I'm not entirely sure what that word means.