[flying plum]

(Original post by ch0c0h01ic)
I didn't say that it wasn't. My point was that it is more difficult for a start, she's a woman and from the sounds of it she doesn't do much/any serious weightlifting making her claim of being 'very muscular' unlikely.

I know...was just trying to lighten the mood a little. amazing how het up people get about other peoples' diets!

[there's too much love]

(Original post by flying plum)
I know...was just trying to lighten the mood a little. amazing how het up people get about other peoples' diets!

This is a thread trying to explain to people that vegans can easily get enough protein and to a lot of people that claim is controversial. All ready then the thread will be tense, but to make matters worse the nutrition subforum is in the fitness subforum, so there's a danger of this "man up" bull**** mentality shoved into people's faces as well.

[JRA900]

(Original post by there's too much love)
This is a thread trying to explain to people that vegans can easily get enough protein and to a lot of people that claim is controversial. All ready then the thread will be tense, but to make matters worse the nutrition subforum is in the fitness subforum, so there's a danger of this "man up" bull**** mentality shoved into people's faces as well.

It's not controversial; it is harder to get enough (correct) protein as a vegan.

Think soya is in anyway fit for human consumption?... please look what's in it, hell what it does to animals fed it. I wouldn't even feed a rat soya it's that bad.

The fact remains that humans are primarily carnivorous, if you choose to gamble with your health, that is a decision for you and you alone. Trying to convince anyone else that a vegan diet is anyway healthy or even acceptable is a form of abuse.

Veganism takes years to recover from; for most. Zinc-copper imbalances, damaged metabolism etc. It is in no way an ok way to eat, to preach to another human being.

[there's too much love]

(Original post by JRA900)
It's not controversial; it is harder to get enough (correct) protein as a vegan.

Think soya is in anyway fit for human consumption?... please look what's in it, hell what it does to animals fed it. I wouldn't even feed a rat soya it's that bad.

The fact remains that humans are primarily carnivorous, if you choose to gamble with your health, that is a decision for you and you alone. Trying to convince anyone else that a vegan diet is anyway healthy or even acceptable is a form of abuse.

Veganism takes years to recover from; for most. Zinc-copper imbalances, damaged metabolism etc. It is in no way an ok way to eat, to preach to another human being.

<insert similar reply making baseless claims that contradict what most dieticians argue, and make arbitrary comparisons to what is good for other animals>.

[JRA900]

(Original post by there's too much love)
<insert similar reply making baseless claims that contradict what most dieticians argue, and make arbitrary comparisons to what is good for other animals>.

Dude, if I wanted to hear from an arse I'd have farted.

Think veganism is natural? Think Cows, Gorillas are vegans? Nope afraid not. Gorillas and Cows survive of fermenting fibre and consuming the bacteria and short chain fatty acids (saturated).

Humans are primarily carnivorous, we have evolved to eat meat. It is good for us. Soya is not, it turns ''men into girls'' among various other detrimental effects on human health.

[there's too much love]

(Original post by JRA900)
Dude, if I wanted to hear from an arse I'd have farted.

Think veganism is natural? Think Cows, Gorillas are vegans? Nope afraid not. Gorillas and Cows survive of fermenting fibre and consuming the bacteria and short chain fatty acids (saturated).

Humans are primarily carnivorous, we have evolved to eat meat. It is good for us. Soya is not, it turns ''men into girls'' among various other detrimental effects on human health.

Oh wow, unsourced claims about something controversial in the scientific world (at least in large quantities) and the naturalism fallacy, and more talking about other animals.
If you'd care to stop your finger diarrhea? Thanks .

[ch0c0h01ic]

(Original post by JRA900)
Dude, if I wanted to hear from an arse I'd have farted.

It takes two to tango.

If she/he is that far off the mark it shouldn't be too hard for you to cite a couple of scientific journals supporting your argument given the dawn of Google Scholar.

Think veganism is natural? Think Cows, Gorillas are vegans? Nope afraid not. Gorillas and Cows survive of fermenting fibre and consuming the bacteria and short chain fatty acids (saturated).

Cows may be ruminants and gorillas hind gut fermenters and their GI flora may synthesise vitamins, proteins and free fatty acids but you cannot escape from the fact that they are herbivores first and foremost.

Humans are primarily carnivorous, we have evolved to eat meat. It is good for us.

However that doesn't mean that people can't be fit and healthy from eating a vegetarian or vegan diet (granted they will probably have to work harder than someone eating a good omnivorous diet and they may need to supplement some nutrients).

Soya is not, it turns ''men into girls'' among various other detrimental effects on human health.

Vegetarianism and veganism do not equal massive consumption of soya - there are plentiful other sources of dietary protein (eg; seeds, nuts, other beans, pulses, etc). Likewise the vast majority of the hysteria surrounding soya consumption is based on vastly exaggerated claims and misguided 'evidence'.

...

The effect of phytoestrogens in men is far less studied and understood. While many are concerned that the phytoestrogens present in soy may negatively impact on testosterone levels the reality is that the studies done to date, using moderate doses of soy/phytoestrogens, have found little to no impact (higher doses are often seen to cause issues).

There is likely to be a sex and population specific response to these compounds and whether or not soy has an impact on anything at all depends heavily on the amount being consumed. Small amounts of soy protein tend to have minimal or no effects on most things studied (such as testosterone levels) while large daily amounts are often seen to have an effect.

...

Beyond that, at least in individuals with normal thyroid function, soy protein appears to have little to no impact on overall thyroid status. The review examined 14 different studies (as noted above, 8 in women, 4 in men and 2 in both) and, with one exception, found little to no impact of soy intake on any measure of thyroid hormone status. I’ll spare you all of the details, only the punchline is of any real importance. Again, that’s in individuals with otherwise normal thyroid function.

However, in individuals with pre-existing low-thyroid (hypothyroid) symptoms, soy proteins can cause problems. Research has shown that soy protein intake may increase the dose of thyroid medication needed (the soy appears to impair uptake of thyroid medication) and individuals who are on thyroid hormones may need to avoid soy protein immediately around the intake of their medication.

...

Basically, I could see how a high intake of soy products (which are being used to fortify many foods such as cereals and protein bars, in addition to the use of soy protein powders) coupled with a misguided attempt to reduce salt intakes excessively (as is often seen in many ‘health-conscious’ individuals) could potentially cause proteins with overall thyroid metabolism.

But, and this goes to my comments earlier in the article, this is only an issue with people insistent on taking aspects of their diet to extremes. People who are really consuming a massive amount of soy protein on a daily basis (that intake level not being seen in the Asian cultures in the first place) who also are trying to minimize sodium intake could be putting themselves at potential risk. And this is moreso the case if there is a pre-existing problem.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/res...-patients.html


As a person you seem to jump on pretty much every diet fad or half truth going - you need to read far more widely if you want to be taken seriously.

[FluxD]

(Original post by there's too much love)
If you disagree with how much protein you think I need to be getting according to the weight an exercise I do then fine, but actually say how much you think I need to be getting and why.

And comparing our protein intakes is as relevant as my diet being dictated to me by my star sign.

The amount I eat is increasing.

And can you source your claims about veganism?

Why does "ecto by birth" mean?

Ecto means born with a naturally skinny frame, small joints and bones and a tendency to find you don't store fat or gain weight in general as easily as some people.

This is definitely not an ideal body type to have combined with a vegan diet, considering you need every calorie, nutrient, amino acid and gram of protein possible to slap on weight combined with extremely intense training which frankly I don't think you would progress well in by eating only plants.

It is possible to still make huge gains as an ecto with high milk, egg, and diary intake (i.e. vegetarian) because they are calorie and protein dense, but to make any substantial gains on a fully vegan diet you will be having to eat kilo after kilo of tofu or leaves or what not, and skewed amount of carbs to protein will probably just make you skinny fat.

Basically, to put it bluntly, I would forget about achieving any sort of substantial gains or progress, but if you convince yourself you are healthy by being overly anal over your diet then go ahead.

[there's too much love]

(Original post by FluxD)
Ecto means born with a naturally skinny frame, small joints and bones and a tendency to find you don't store fat or gain weight in general as easily as some people.

This is definitely not an ideal body type to have combined with a vegan diet, considering you need every calorie, nutrient, amino acid and gram of protein possible to slap on weight combined with extremely intense training which frankly I don't think you would progress well in by eating only plants.

It is possible to still make huge gains as an ecto with high milk, egg, and diary intake (i.e. vegetarian) because they are calorie and protein dense, but to make any substantial gains on a fully vegan diet you will be having to eat kilo after kilo of tofu or leaves or what not, and skewed amount of carbs to protein will probably just make you skinny fat.

Basically, to put it bluntly, I would forget about achieving any sort of substantial gains or progress, but if you convince yourself you are healthy by being overly anal over your diet then go ahead.

Sounds like me, I have slipped up my weight slightly. I think it'll be a tough one, but I'll do it. I still can't afford Gym membership but I've started doing press ups with bottles of water in a rucksack (it's only at 7.5 KG right now, but it makes press ups a lot harder, oddly it seems to have no effect on tricep dips when I wear it on my chest though). I've never been muscley, or tried to be. There's also a slap of wood and tiles I can barely life in the Garage, when my dad moves his care out of there I'll be using that.
I'm hoping I can start to feel some gains by the end of the month.

Why are you differentiating between amino acid and protein?

Also to up my kcals I've finally got some flax seed oil. Every other day I have some black strap molasses. And I add olive oil or sunflower oil to every other meal.

Edit:
And I wouldn't say I am being overly anal about my diet, apart from when I start kcal counting.

[IFondledAGibbon]

(Original post by there's too much love)
Sounds like me, I have slipped up my weight slightly. I think it'll be a tough one, but I'll do it. I still can't afford Gym membership but I've started doing press ups with bottles of water in a rucksack (it's only at 7.5 KG right now, but it makes press ups a lot harder, oddly it seems to have no effect on tricep dips when I wear it on my chest though). I've never been muscley, or tried to be. There's also a slap of wood and tiles I can barely life in the Garage, when my dad moves his care out of there I'll be using that.
I'm hoping I can start to feel some gains by the end of the month.

It's going to be pretty difficult to gain weight training and eating like that. The things I tend to focus on are the following.

1. Eating more calories than you consume.
- If you want to gain weight, this is exactly what you'll have to do.

2. Training "right", and training heavy.
- you can make some initial (small) gains with body-weight exercises but if you're serious about building muscle, you're going to have to train in the 4-10 rep range gradually increasing weight. Access to weights is vital. You can get pretty creative with a dumbbell set if a gym membership is out of your budget.

3. Getting enough protein
- This is going to be difficult for a vegan. I'd recommend looking into supplementation. There's plenty of vegan protein powders available. I usually aim for my 180g of protein a day. No doubt you'll need quite a lot less than that, you can calculate your requirements on most bodybuilding sites.

[FluxD]

Listen to him ^. 60g of protein is nowhere near enough to make gains. Think about it, the average person probably eats around 100g+ a day and doesn't even exercise, I try to get 1.5-2g per lb of bodyweight, so for you that would be at least 190g for gaining mass combined with heavy weight lifting.

It is hard to gain weight being ecto, I know but I have put on quite a lot of lean mass but it has taken so much effort diet wise eating everything in sight to force my body to put on weight. I was eating like 3500-4000 calories a day and getting stupid amounts of protein from whey, milk and meat and still found my weight going up slow.

Now I have gained the weight I find I can eat less and maintain or grow on less calories for some reason.

[there's too much love]

(Original post by IFondledAGibbon)
It's going to be pretty difficult to gain weight training and eating like that. The things I tend to focus on are the following.

1. Eating more calories than you consume.
- If you want to gain weight, this is exactly what you'll have to do.

2. Training "right", and training heavy.
- you can make some initial (small) gains with body-weight exercises but if you're serious about building muscle, you're going to have to train in the 4-10 rep range gradually increasing weight. Access to weights is vital. You can get pretty creative with a dumbbell set if a gym membership is out of your budget.

3. Getting enough protein
- This is going to be difficult for a vegan. I'd recommend looking into supplementation. There's plenty of vegan protein powders available. I usually aim for my 180g of protein a day. No doubt you'll need quite a lot less than that, you can calculate your requirements on most bodybuilding sites.

Okay my diet is pretty good right now, it will probably improve (in terms of simply upping the kcals).

According to several sites I need about 100 grams. Which I'm pretty sure I get all ready.

Edit:
Making a different thread for equipment.


Edit:
Here's the other thread: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...1#post32706411

[there's too much love]

(Original post by FluxD)
Listen to him ^. 60g of protein is nowhere near enough to make gains. Think about it, the average person probably eats around 100g+ a day and doesn't even exercise, I try to get 1.5-2g per lb of bodyweight, so for you that would be at least 190g for gaining mass combined with heavy weight lifting.

That's arbitrary, the average person is, well, that's an impossible claim to make in the first place. But more than that there's nothing to say how much the average person needs.

The question is how much protein should *I* be getting, not how much protein are other people getting, or how much protein other people need.

It is hard to gain weight being ecto, I know but I have put on quite a lot of lean mass but it has taken so much effort diet wise eating everything in sight to force my body to put on weight. I was eating like 3500-4000 calories a day and getting stupid amounts of protein from whey, milk and meat and still found my weight going up slow.

Now I have gained the weight I find I can eat less and maintain or grow on less calories for some reason.

I heard one person tell me that the body likes to go into some homeostasis mode where it tries to stay at the same weight, *IF* that holds any truth (and I approach that skeptically) perhaps that's the case with you, and you came out of it?